ANOTHER DOUBTING THOMAS (HOME PAGE)
“I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies.” - Thomas Jefferson
NOTE: Theme changed to Black-LetterHead on Jan. 27th, 2008.
The Bible is the most available, most purchased and least read book in the world. This is a shame since the more people who actually read the ‘good book’, and I mean read it in its entirety, not pick and choose your favorite passage, the more people who would, like me, no longer be able to worship the god depicted in its pages. For those who pick up the ‘good book’ expecting to find a joyous life-guide encouraging love, peace and happiness, you will be sorely disappointed. Instead you will find a collection of fables, obviously derived from earlier mythologies, full of superstitious ignorance, atrocities, inhuman cruelty, violence, vengeance, threats, petty jealousy, incest, curses, injustice, genocide, suffering, unfair punishment, murder, rape, depravity, anger and death. Sooooo much death.
This website is a catalog of the many observations and questions I accumulated during my evolution from a lifelong Christian who went to church every Sunday and Private Christian Schools most of my life, to an Atheist, a Skeptic and a Cynic. Ironically, this occurred as a direct result of studying the holy book (the Bible), something most people erroneously believe all Christians do on a regular basis. This is simply not the case. Even in my many years of bible study classes studying the bible was never the goal. The memorizing of certain passages, passages that supported whatever was being taught that week, seemed to be the only thing the bible was ever used for. The Apostle Paul may have said to avoid foolish questions but after one thoroughly reads the bible, I find it difficult to imagine your mind not being filled with them.
Being an Atheist is a choice. Being a Christian never was. Like almost all other religious people I was indoctrinated into my religion as a young child. At the exact same time I was being told about the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus, at the exact same time my innocent, naive mind was certain the dark interior of my closet and the recess under my bed became passages to some nightmare world whenever the sun went down, at the exact same time that in my ignorance I was absolutely certain that if I left my bedroom window open at night the tree outside would crawl inside and eat me while I slept, at the exact same time that my foolish, child’s mind believed everything my parents told me, they told me about Jesus and God.
The most harmful thing a parent can do to their child is teach them theory as fact, regardless of how wonderful that theory may be. Once myth has been established as fact in a child’s mind, it is very difficult, even as an adult, for that person to shake that belief. If a person is surrounded by people who believe in Santa Claus and grows up never encountering anyone who informs him that Santa Claus isn’t real, and indeed is surrounded by those who continually reinforce this idea (presents arrive miraculously, cookies and milk are eaten, hoof prints on roof, etc.), guess who still believes in Santa Claus as an adult. Isn’t this a form of child abuse? Before you theists (god believers) answer in your typical knee-jerk fashion, I ask that you consider what the followers of David Koresh did to their children. How is it any different? Religious indoctrination of a child is wrong, no matter which religion is being indoctrinated. I find it unethical for ANYONE to teach a child that what you hope and pray to be true is in fact undeniably, unquestionably true. Teach a child what you BELIEVE to be true but also teach them that there are hundreds and hundreds of millions of other people who believe in something entirely different and that it is up to them to come to their own conclusions.
Most theists (god worshipers) claim that morality is found only within their particular religion. But morality is just a word religious people came up with to define mankind’s ability to reason. And what is more moral; a Believer that assists someone in need with the expectation of a special reward in the afterlife, or an Atheist who helps simply because they feel this is the right thing to do? And how does your god judge the innocent (those who were never given a choice to accept Jesus or were incapable of making such a choice)? I’m referring to babies, children, the mentally retarded, the mentally ill, the brain damaged, those that have never even heard of Christ, all those who died long before Christianity was created, those ancient people who naively invented and worshiped other gods, etc. Do you worship a god who would condemn such people to hell upon their deaths? If you believe these people get a free pass into heaven, what are the qualifications for the free pass (Cut off age? Level of retardation? Etc.)
This website is in no way an attempt to convert theists into Atheists, although I truly believe the world would be much better off if this occurred (consider the great philosophical question of who Adolf Hitler would have become if he had been an Atheist instead of a Christian). Instead, I would like it if both atheists and theists (especially Christians) would review all of the various posts (catagorized on the right) on this site thoroughly and if, after doing so, they can offer some sort of enlightenment that could possibly renew my faith, please feel free to respond with your revelation. You see, I’m very eager to understand how people who believe as I once did can continue to believe after being confronted with the same facts about Christianity that resulted in me losing my faith. But please, only intelligent responses. I don’t need to be told that I’m going to burn in hell because I refuse to worship a god whose own holy book repulsed me so much as to make me lose my faith. And please, please refrain from simply regurgitating scripture or religious dogma. Remember, the bible no longer holds any authority for me, so these standard, oft repeated, oh so familiar tenants all have the same subtitle: “Because The Bible Tells Me So.” To an Atheist, faith isn’t an answer; it’s merely a synonym for hope. Also understand I did not create this site to have a continual back and forth with those who do or don’t agree with my observations. I believe this to be pointless as no religionist has ever ‘converted’ an Atheist and the reverse is just as unlikely to occur. I chose the blog format simply to give those who agree/disagree to have a place to voice their own opinion. I look forward to reading all comments but unfortunately don’t have the time to reply to many.
Thank You.
DoubtingThomas
January 6, 2008 at 2:02 pm
I am 40 and this year has been all about finding the truths in life.. Religion etc.. I have found a balance of Atheism and Tibetan Buddhism that suits me. i am happy with that and absolutely nothing could change my mind at this point. I do hate the term Atheism though, it is such a 70’s word .. like KKK or the N word or Nazi’s etc.. It just carries a bad wrap..as sam Harris has said.. we need a new word or non at all.. Rationalists but nobody would google that one! I linked you by the way.. have a lovely day!
January 6, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Totally agree about the whole title thing, Disgustipated. Most ‘atheists’ are far more complex than their label would define them. Thanks for visiting my site. Please check back often. Already linked your site as well. Keep up the good work!
January 6, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Get a life, then suicide.
January 6, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Get a life, then suicide. Then you’ll prove your point. The important part is not us getting it, but you. So, let my advice be your last. I wish you good luck, please stop writing meaningless things, they are quite redundant.
January 6, 2008 at 4:34 pm
If by redundant you mean they keep proving the same point again and again; that god doesn’t exist, religion is bunk and the bible is a disgusting piece of fiction, then I completely agree with you.
Thanks for the comment, dedude! Feel free to review the rest of the site.
January 6, 2008 at 4:37 pm
And, dedude, I’m curious, which religion influences its followers to encourage the non-believer to kill themselves? I’m making a list, you see.
Thanks!
January 8, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Glad I found your site.
January 8, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Hello
Yep - an interesting site which will no doubt cause much controversy. The irony being that the one who make the biggest, most agressive statements will probably be the ‘christians’ who just cannot understand the importance of questioning. I remember once asking a nun at school whether reincarnation was a possibility and I was put in detention for a week. Haha! I think anyone who is questioning should yes, read the bible but if that makes your belief even stronger, then read the Life of Pi (by Yann Martell) - the questions that it asks and the answers it gives are an interesting and rewarding brain excercise to show just how maleable our beliefs are no matter how fantastical the story and *then* imagine an extra chapter on the end of the bible. Just a thought…. 
January 8, 2008 at 4:29 pm
The most harmful thing a parent can do to their child is teach them theory as fact, regardless of how wonderful that theory may be. Once myth has been established as fact in a child’s mind, it is very difficult, even as an adult, for that person to shake that belief. How true. My journey out of religious indoctrination has been a long process & I am almost 50! I keep finding I still hold ideas over from my childhood.( I was raised in a religiously fanatic Pentecostal environment) Just recently I got a book about the origin of the OT from the view of what has actually been unearthed by the science of Archaeology.( My blog discussion on the book here
) The truth is way more interesting then the myth & much more productive.
Speaking of…I found your blog from looking up that ridiculous House resolution 888
January 9, 2008 at 6:58 am
Well, I have actually read the Life of Pi, and it is a pretty well-written book, except for the parts where the island eats the people and animals decapitate each other (the tiger was very amusing). But anyways, you were talking about you as a former Christian was forced into attending Church, bible studies, etc. by your parents. The fact is that, we always do have a choice. The fact is, you were never a Christian. You were doing all the things people believed Christians must do; go to Church, read the Bible etc. The thing is that you have to want to do these things, but you did it out of obligation. Those around you were doing it therefore, you decided to try it. And when you didn’t like what you read in the Bible, you decided it wasn’t for you. Those who told you that the Bible was a self-help book were wrong; that is absolutely false. There is a misunderstanding that once you become a Christian, everything will be so much easier; that your life will magically be problem-free, suffering-free. This is not the case; in fact your life may even seem harder. (I assume you know about the trials and persecution) Well anyways, tis late and I really must sleep! So Guten Abend (German for Good night! Oh and I’m not German by the way).
January 9, 2008 at 8:18 am
teabagstone - *rubbing my hands with GLEE!* you have just perfectly disproved your own point by not understanding the premise I was putting forward with the Life of Pi. haha! ‘You were never a Christian’ is based on the fact that I did it out of an obligation? No, I did it because of indoctrination and I did not turn away from the story of the Bible, I just recognised that it was a man made product which has been abused by thousands of years of power-hungry organisations. I suggest that my theories are more ‘Christian’ than yours as I have taken them to the higher level than you have and I trust the values that are within me, rather than those that are preached to me. Organised religion kills the soul. ‘God’ would reject religion, as I have.
January 9, 2008 at 9:11 am
Well put, as usual, Narnie. So nice to have another rational thinker visiting my site. I don’t understand how teabagsforme misunderstood your point about Life of Pi.
And, teabagsforme, I will ask you one of my favorite questions for Christians, one which always provokes a different answer. First, you state that Narnie was never a Christian (still not clear how you came to that odd, willful conclusion), so I ask you, what is a legitimate ‘Christian’? Someone who reads the bible every day? Someone who has read the entire bible? Someone who picks and chooses which biblical laws to obey? Someone who takes every word of the bible as absolute fact and obeys it as such (guess your rebellious son should be stoned to death - Deut. 21:18-21)? Someone who is incapable of finding a single passage in the bible that they would describe as vile, revolting or disturbing? Someone who believes Christian dogma should be imposed on all cultures? Someone who believes the United States government should be a Christian one (thereby excluding the millions of legitimate Americans who worship a different deity or none at all). Someone who believes that Pat Robertson genuinely just returned from his annual vacation with the Lord, where the Lord informed him what would be happening in America in the upcoming year (What, no lottery numbers?!)? Someone who believes that everyone who comes to this country (U.S.) to become a citizen should be required to pledge their allegiance to it as well as an allegiance to ‘our’ Christian god, regardless of what religion they belong to or god(s) they may worship? Someone who believes that mention of the Christian god should appear on EVERY piece of currency we have? Just what, exactly, are the prerequisites for being a ‘real’ Christian?
And another thing, teabagsforme, whenever religion is indoctrinated into a child, in other words, when theory is taught as fact (see Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, etc.), the child is not given a choice. They blindly and innocently believe what their parent tells them. The children of the Branch Davidians (David Koresh) did this, as did the children of the ancient Greeks, Aztecs, etc., as do the children of Mormons, Scientologists, the Enawene Nawe (Amazonian Tribe), etc. And, also, I’ve never met a Christian, and I doubt Narnie has either, who believed that –‘everything will be so much easier; that your life will magically be problem-free, suffering-free’—by being part of that religion, nor did Narnie suggest such a thing.
I know it sounds like such a cliché, but The Truth Will Set You Free! I know it did for me and it sounds like the same is true for Narnie.
Thanks for your comments!
January 9, 2008 at 9:31 am
And for anyone interested, the name of the book handmaiden is referring to (and OT stands for Old Testament, btw) is — The Bible Unearthed: Archeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts”
Written by by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman (Amazon.com’s Best of 2001)–. It’s one of those books that can only benefit humanity if read. Why aren’t books like this part of our children’s curriculum? Every bible believer should be required to read this, if for no other reason than to test their faith, something religionists are, sadly, rarely willing to do. Check it out here. The future of humanity depends on our species no longer relying on superstitions to guide our lives and shape our laws.
January 9, 2008 at 9:39 am
Well, the hyperlink didn’t work for the book so here is the link.
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/0684869136/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199871506&sr=8-2
January 9, 2008 at 5:24 pm
That comment by teabagforme The fact is, you were never a Christian. really peeves me. I have also been told by Christians that I never was one because I am not not one now. It infuriates me. I consider it the height of arrogance for them to presume they can validate or invalidate MY life by telling me what I am, am not, or have been. It’s the same bullshit I had to put up with as a child, when i was indoctrinated, brain-washed, filled with Bible propaganda… whatever you want to call it, by adults who should have known better. I became born-again my self as an adult & struggled for 10 years, trying to reconcile myself to Christianity. I’ve been baptized three different times in my life. I sure as heck don’t want some smug Christian who doesn’t even know me passing judgment on me just so he/she can justify their own twisted Christian logic…
When people like teabag & other Christians answer your question “what is a legitimate ‘Christian’?” You notice it always includes themselves & leaves out other people who also call themselves Christians. Now that is a good example of Christian logic!
January 10, 2008 at 3:12 am
Hi….? What is your first name? To state the obvious, mine is Jeromy.
Thanks for inviting me over to your blog. You have been busy! I have only read a few so far, but I am really intrigued by your questions. I honestly feel that part of the problem is that most churches do not provide a place or atmosphere to ask tough questions. Can I ask a few?
Are you put off by God and Jesus? or by church, religion, and Christendom? I personally believe the two are separate. For instance, there is this book, “I like Jesus but not the Church.” Would that be a fair statement for you?
Was there a breaking point where you said enough is enough? What was it?
I like what you said, “What is more moral, a Believer that assists someone in need with the expectation of a special reward in the afterlife, or an Atheist who helps simply because they feel this is the right thing to do?” Jesus seemed to mention a lot of about the fruit is what makes a person. I would say both are. After all, goodness is goodness; kindness is kindness. The heathen Samaritan was praised for his kindness and mercy…I’m sure the others would have been too if they would have stopped to help. I despise the equations that go: Person + Jesus = can do good / Person - Jesus = cannot do good.
January 10, 2008 at 3:41 am
One more…do you mind if I add you to my Blogroll?
January 10, 2008 at 4:44 am
Hey, dt.
Like the site, you should set up the RSS feed link I think your format would suit it perfectly. These little nuggets of rationality you have are great, will check back to work my way through it all.
I put a link to you on my site, hope you don’t mind. You should also check out the http://skepticum.com/ blog if you haven’t already.
January 10, 2008 at 6:05 am
I’ll be quite honest, Scepticon, I’m fairly new to the blog world (this is my first attempt at a site) and I have no idea what an RSS feed link is or how it works or how it would benifit me. Can you explain it and perhaps give me some pointers?
January 10, 2008 at 7:24 am
It’s not about me, you, or us. It’s supposed to be about God. And no, there is no legitimate Christian but to be as much like Jesus as possible. I’m not saying that we have to perform miracles and preach nationwide, or to force others who don’t want any part of God into Christianity. But to at least try tell others. We all know that no matter what we say to some people, they still refuse to listen. No one is a perfect Christian, just as no one is perfect.
January 10, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Thomas - RSS allows you to have new blog posts and comments “fed” to you so you don’t have to keep going back to the site to check for new stuff. You’ll need to find a feed-burner that you like, such as http://www.google.com/reader (or just Goolge Burn-feeder and pick one). Some mail software (such as Mac Mail) have the ability to add RSS feeds so they show up in your email. To add feeds from WordPress:
For Posts: Add “feed” to the address line (feed://doubtingthomas426.wordpress.com/feed) then copy and paste the address to your feedburner.
For Comments: Add “comments/feed” (feed://doubtingthomas426.wordpress.com/comments/feed/) and repeat. This will feed you all comments posted on a blog.
Hope this helps…
January 10, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Do you think you could add the recent comments widget? I can’t remember all the questions I replied to…
January 10, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Ok I am also very new to the blogging world so if I put this comment in the wrong spot then I really do appologize.
I was also raised in a Christian home, but I remeber at a very early age questioning everything that my parents tought me and what the Church taught me. My parents always encouraged questions and told me that if I didn’t know why I believed what I did then there was no point in believing it. Some people are raised in Christian homes and feel brainwashed, others like me, are encouraged to make our own decissions about Christ. The question I would pose would be, does our upbringing, or our experiance with the church or other Christians, have any effect on reality? Does the way your Sunday school teacher taught you make God real? Does someone teaching your about Christ from birth make it false?
As to your oposition to the God of the Bible, well I’ll try to keep this a short and maybe clarify as we go along. When we read through the bible, do we question if God was justified in condeming the Angels that fell (satan and his buddies) to eternal condemnation. Do we think that it is unfair for them to spend an eternity in Hell without hope of redemption? Yet we think that we are so much better. The problem is we fell, we sinned, and God did not have to have His son come to this earth to die for our sins. He could have let us all join Satan in hell, but He provided a way for us. If God is God, then we have no claim to heaven, and it is only by His grace, for His glory, that we are saved. Not because we’re all good people and this world should be happy and full of sunshine. By his grace and His glory alone. God does not owe us anything. He gave us a perfect world, without pain, without death, without suffering, and we’re the ones who mucked it up.
January 10, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Laurel Esser said:
I have a hard time accepting this at face value. I don’t like the term brainwashing, but indoctrination is certainly a very good term to use to describe what parents do to children. Teaching them not to cross the street without looking both ways is also indoctrination, at that age.
If you live in a household that assumes the existence of god, even if you are told to make up your own mind as to your beliefs, that, in and of itself is a form of indoctrination, and certainly more insidious, because it’s unintentional.
The proof is in the pudding. If you are raised in Iran, you will most likely believe in Allah. Why? Because that’s what your parents believe in, regardless of whether they partook in any form of indoctrination. If you’re a Christian, I would bet, 99.999999% of the time, your parents were Christian.
You for instance. Why aren’t you a Muslim, if you had such an open upbringing? Or Hindu?
It certainly has an effect on your perception of reality.
No. Nothing makes God real. You can talk and read your Bible and get your Sunday School lessons until you’re dead, and god won’t be any more real as a result.
No. Doesn’t make it true either.
January 11, 2008 at 2:28 pm
How we were raised and what we were taught as children does effect our perception of reality, but as you agreed it does not affect reality itself. You compare it to the tooth fairy or Santa Clause and said, “…and grows up never encountering anyone who informs him that Santa Claus isn’t real, guess who still believes in Santa Claus as an adult” I disagree. I think at some point they would question when there was no proof that he existed. Santa Clause brings presents every year, so every year someone would have to trick a grown adult and make him think that present came from a guy who fit down your chimney. Now I know your going to say that people are just continually tricking us into believing about God, but I think we can agree it’s a silly comparison. God does not leave us without the proof and the evidence that we need to know Him.
My parents both came from atheist homes that did not include God in the diner conversation. Why do my parents believe in God? God works in the lives of people who were raised in Christian homes and ones who were raised in Buddhist homes etc. (Although God does promise to bless from generation to generation). You no longer believing in God is proof that your upbringing did not affect you ability to think things for yourself.
The way parents raise or don’t raise their children does not affect reality. Either there is a God or there isn’t. I believe there is. You believe there isn’t. And someone else believes something else. Now we can all be wrong, but we can’t all be right.
“they can offer some sort of enlightenment that could possibly renew my faith,”
I am in no way trying to convert you, or renew your faith, only God can do that. But I really do enjoy talking to someone who has real reasons for not wanting to believe in God, and who is willing to talk about it.
January 11, 2008 at 3:00 pm
quick sorry - I applogize if I am mixing up quotes from doubtingthomas and the spanish inquisitor (to many blogs going at once)
January 12, 2008 at 12:38 pm
I added the Recent Comments Widget, Nicole, thanks for the suggestion. A very good idea.
January 12, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Spanish Inquisitor, thanks for your comment, I couldn’t have said it better myself. BTW, can you give me a tip on how you separate your comments from the ones you’re replying to the way you do (colored boxes). I certainly makes it much easier to tell the two apart. Thanks.
January 12, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Laura Esser, you said the following — “You compare it to the tooth fairy or Santa Clause and said, “…and grows up never encountering anyone who informs him that Santa Claus isn’t real, guess who still believes in Santa Claus as an adult” I disagree. I think at some point they would question when there was no proof that he existed. Santa Clause brings presents every year, so every year someone would have to trick a grown adult and make him think that present came from a guy who fit down your chimney. Now I know your going to say that people are just continually tricking us into believing about God, but I think we can agree it’s a silly comparison. God does not leave us without the proof and the evidence that we need to know Him.”
Laura, first, NO, we can not agree that it is a silly comparison. It is a PERFECT comparison. The story of Santa Claus is a myth, taught to children by their parents. The feats Santa achieves are nothing short of miraculous, which, of course, means impossible. They completely defy reality. There is no factual evidence to support any of the achievements depicted in the stories told of Santa Claus’. If a child indoctrinated to believe in the reality of Santa Claus was isolated from those that didn’t believe in him and continued to be taught that he was real, was surrounded by others who also believed, was regularly confronted with ‘evidence’ that he was real (presents every Christmas, cookies and milk gone next morning, reindeer hoof prints on roof, etc.), you’re telling me they wouldn’t be likely to grow up still believing? You’re telling me a child indoctrinated in into the Christian religion, practically forbidden to associate with anyone who wasn’t a fellow Christian, who is dragged to church every Sunday to have his indoctrination reinforced, and where he is often confronted by ‘evidence’ of the reality of these teachings by lunatics pretending to speak in tongues, fake faith healings, passionate stories told of first hand experiences with the miraculous (never with an type of proof), is put into a private school where everyday he is reminded of the ‘truth’ of the bible, you’re telling me this is a silly comparison?
You state both your parents were raised in atheist homes and ask so why do they both believe in God? Good question, please answer it. When did they ‘find god’? Who did they meet? What was happening in their lives? The reason people who aren’t religious ‘find’ religion is always different but always has a few disturbing similarities that always reveal the self-centeredness of their reason. You say God works in Christian homes and Buddhist homes. What does this mean? God is actively trying to convert those that worship other gods or belong to other religions into Christians? Why does he suck so bad at it? And which of the 80+ sects of Christianity is God leaning toward? And you say that God promises to BLESS from generation to generation? Try again — Ex 34:6,7 – “… and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children & upon the children’s children, unto the third and fourth generation.” AND Jer. 13:13, 14 – “Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings… and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness. And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the Lord: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.” AND Jer 11:22, 23 – “Behold, I will punish them: the young men shall die by the sword; their sons and their daughters shall die by famine: And there shall be no remnant of them: for I will bring evil upon the men of Anathoth…” AND Jer 15:5, 7, 9 – “For who shall have pity upon thee, O Jerusalem? or who shall bemoan thee? … I will bereave them of children, I will destroy my people since they return not from their ways … and the residue of them will I deliver to the sword before their enemies, saith the Lord.” AND Nahum 1:2 - “God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.” AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON.
And my no longer believing in your god doesn’t prove that my upbringing didn’t affect my ability to think things through. If I had never escaped the suffocating religious establishment that had me in its snare I would still be a believer, just as many of those from my private school days still are. What it proves is, that once you are no longer surrounded (suffocated) by a religious reinforcement of theory you win the ability to think freely and with a clear mind. The clouds depart and the scales are lifted from your eyes. You begin to see reason and logic and realize that TRUTH is never a ‘claim’, it is always a fact.
[[[The way parents raise or don’t raise their children does not affect reality.]]]
Don’t be silly. Of course it does. A child’s reality is FAR, FAR from the real world. Only when you become an adult is there an opportunity to shed the fables of your childhood. The problem is, many don’t because they never allow anyone in their lives that would suggest that what they believe isn’t the truth. Do you have any idea how many 18 year-olds truly believe that if, during intercourse, the girl is ‘on top’, she can’t become pregnant? If no one ever told them different they would continue to believe that fallacy until they saw the plus symbol in the little box. Oops!
[[[we can all be wrong, but we can’t all be right.]]]
On this we can agree. The problem is you are CERTAIN that, of all the thousands of gods that have been invented and worshiped, of all the religions that have existed, YOU somehow found the ONE real one. Your certainty that you are right and the rest are silly, made up nonsense and your unwillingness to scrutinize your own beliefs is what’s so troubling to atheists. You see, we are so alike, only I dismiss just ONE additional god, the one you worship. That’s all.
January 12, 2008 at 4:56 pm
once you are no longer surrounded (suffocated) by a religious reinforcement of theory you win the ability to think freely and with a clear mind. That is it in a nut shell.
January 12, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Laura Esser said: “The problem is we fell, we sinned, and God did not have to have His son come to this earth to die for our sins.”
Laura, first of I am not nor ever was a Christian. I was raised a Jain, but am now an atheist.
If Adam and Eve sinned, why does that automatically mean that I have sinned too? I find this one of the most perplexing doctrines in Xtianity. To me it is akin to hanging a child for the murders her father committed.
Would anyone be willing to be called a criminal for the crimes of someone else? Would you be willing to be labeled a child molester? If you aren’t than why are you willing to consider yourself a sinner without any judgment of your own actions or thoughts?
Also, hi to doubtingthomas426, i am enjoying your blog.
January 13, 2008 at 11:25 am
Hey, JayS, glad to have a fellow rational thinker stop by. You asked some good questions but I fear the answers will be typical religious dogma. You might want to check out the comments from the believers on some of my others posts to get an idea of the never ending battle of dogma I’ve been dealing with. See the links below.
http://doubtingthomas426.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/i-also-require-proof/
http://doubtingthomas426.wordpress.com/2007/12/16/if-the-statement-is-true-your-religion-is-vile/
http://doubtingthomas426.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/hornets-from-god/
http://doubtingthomas426.wordpress.com/2007/12/11/so-unnecessary/
http://doubtingthomas426.wordpress.com/2007/12/12/as-man-evolves-so-do-his-worshiping-practices/
http://doubtingthomas426.wordpress.com/2007/12/16/god-punishes-more-innocent-people-than-guilty/
Keep checking back.
January 14, 2008 at 5:51 am
This is a very strangely setup site. I keep wanting to just hit the home page, scroll down, and read more!
I think your evolution is an intriguing one, and your point about the transfer of faith onto children falls upon sympathetic years, although that particular bit of decency is well ahead of its time.
Keep up the good work!
January 14, 2008 at 6:37 am
Greetings. You have an interesting story to tell. I don’t have the time to respond to all your points but I can see that we probably will disagree on most things. But one thing you said is sadly true. The Bible isn’t read to the degree that one would expect of a best seller. I don’t know about it being the least read book. However it’s at least true that we live in a culture where many professing Christians are biblically illiterate. If you have any studies you can point me to, I’d like to see them.
Not every Christian however is biblically illiterate and many Christians, including myself, have read the Bible completely through - more than once. I don’t agree that if more people read it completely that they’d come away as atheists (as you say you did.) We’re all different. Some have come to faith by reading the Bible. It’s impossible to generalize.
I look forward to perusing your site as I have time.
January 14, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Good points about Christians not really studying their Bible enough. And you are probably right that most people don’t explain the purpose of the Bible. It isn’t a “joyous life-guide encouraging love and happiness” guide, though it can lead to true joy.
Yes, it includes all those awful things you mention because life is messy and sinful humans do those things.
I went to church my whole life (except the college years) but rejected the beliefs until my late 20’s when I finally took the Bible seriously and studied it. If kids are being “indoctrinated” then the parents must not be doing a very good job of it, because it sure ain’t sticking very well.
I examined the evidence for the life, death of resurrection of Jesus and the truth claims of other religions as well. I am most grateful to be a follower of Jesus and to have all my sins forgiven by what He did for me.
Good points re. Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. I think those are a waste of time and can’t see why Christians, of all people, would emphasize them so.
I always remind Christians that one bad argument can undermine ten good ones. So if I were you I’d drop the “Hitler was a Christian” bit. It is a popular but poor argument atheists use, and I’ve never seen it advance a conversation. I could call myself a Muslim, but the pesky facts that I think Allah is a fiction, the Koran is false, Mohammad was false, I like Jewish people, I love bacon, etc. would give people reasons to doubt that assertion.
January 15, 2008 at 11:40 am
Whiteman0o0, I deleted your comment regarding the Origin of Life and created a new post to address your excelent question here:
http://doubtingthomas426.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/the-origin-of-life/
January 15, 2008 at 1:00 pm
[[[Yes, it (the Bible) includes all those awful things you mention because life is messy and sinful humans do those things.]]]
Neil, you’ve read the bible, right? Then you know that the majority of the atrocities I mention on this site are done by your god and those that are done by man are done under the command of your god. Please click on my THE CRUELTY OF THE CREATOR category on the left for just a few examples.
IF kids are being indoctrinated, Neil? IF? Are you suggesting that this isn’t occurring?
————————————
[[[I examined the evidence for the life, death of resurrection of Jesus ]]]
You’ve examined the EVIDENCE? I would love to see it. Can you direct me to this evidence? I ask because during my studies and investigations I found only the opposite, hence how I lost my faith.
———————————–
[[[if I were you I’d drop the “Hitler was a Christian” bit. It is a popular but poor argument atheists use]]]
Neil, I’m not sure I understand what you mean. First, I wasn’t making an argument but asking the common question of who Adolf Hitler would have become if he had been an Atheist instead of a Christian. I understand that Christians HATE being reminded of this fact but it IS a fact. His anti-Semitism was a direct result of his religious upbringing. All I was suggesting was that it is an interesting idea to ponder. What if? And the notion that his ACTIONS weren’t very Christian therefore he wasn’t a REAL Christian is absurd. The pages of the bible are filled with atrocities that would make those Hitler was responsible for pale in comparison.
Thanks for your comments. Please keep reviewing my other posts categorized at the top of the page on the left.
January 15, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Nicole, I deleted your comment and moved it here as it didn’t really fit here.
http://doubtingthomas426.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/nicoles-comment-i-moved-it-here/
I’ll try to reply to it tomorrow
January 15, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Yeh, it’s not that Christianity is bad in itself. It’s the people that twist scripture to fit their own purposes.
I’m by no means defending any sect of Christianity. Personally, I’m pretty much a lapsed Catholic, so I cannot criticize anyone else, and I am tired of defending my own faith.
But I always enjoy looking at the world through others perspectives, so I’m looking forward to perusing your blog.
January 16, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Hi Doubting Thomas, Keep watching my blog, because I am going to be writing about some amazinghidden secrets and mysteries that are coming to light here in the end times. I know you’ll be interested because if there wasn’t some deep seated belief within you, you would not be trying to surpress it by writing against it.
It amazes me that people who call themselves atheist, feel so compelled to write about religion, especially Christianity. Why do you care itf someone wants to believe in, what you call, “a fable?” It’s not like your trying to save me from anything. If what you believe is true wouldn’t your time be much better of doing soimething else????
January 16, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Hi,
God created this world for his pleasure and put Adam in the garden. Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying God and their fellowship was cut off from God. All their children were born in the spirit and likeness of their parents (Gen. 5:3), that means all of us, the descendants of Adam, were cut off from God. Rom 3:23 - all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Rom 3:10 - there is none righteous, not even one. Rom 6:23 - the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life, through Christ Jesus our Lord.
Jesus said: ‘I am the Way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH ME. The whole purpose of Jesus on His sinless life on this earth was to DIE on the cross. Because He never sinned, as the Son of God, He was the only one who was qualified to take away the sins of the whole world. He died, was buried and on the 3rd day rose again, because He had conquered death. Hebrews 9:22 - without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. That is why Christ had to die.
God loved the world so much that He gave His Son, to redeem the whole world. He gave His Son and raised Him up again. God is holy, and no sin can come near Him, that is why the world had to be redeemed before it could come to Him John 3:16 - for God so loved the world that He gave His son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but should have everlasting life. That everlasting life is in heaven, where God is and longs for us to be with Him. Jesus will come again, this time to gather those who are His to His side in heaven, where the streets are made of gold.
A admit that you are a sinner
B believe that Jesus died on the cross for YOU
C choose Jesus as the Lord and Saviour of your life, to save you from your sins and redeem you.
Acts 16:31 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL be saved
January 16, 2008 at 12:58 pm
[[[pbt777 SAID - It amazes me that people who call themselves atheist, feel so compelled to write about religion, especially Christianity. Why do you care itf someone wants to believe in, what you call, “a fable?” It’s not like your trying to save me from anything. If what you believe is true wouldn’t your time be much better of doing soimething else????]]]
pbt777, did you even read my introduction page above? My focus is Christianity because that is the religion I was indoctrinated into. As to why Atheists write or discuss religion at all, it’s really very simple. We’re bewildered as to why you believe. We are curious to learn how people are capable of such willful ignorance and self delusion. The truth is out there. It isn’t hiding from the faithful. The faithful are hiding from it. And think about it, pbt777, what if you knew of a whole group of people who believed in the existence of unicorns. These people worshiped these imaginary creatures. Your teenage daughter had hooked up with a guy who was part of this group and was now deeply entrenched with them as well. Would it be a waste of your time to discuss or write about how you know this religion to be false and offer evidence for your beliefs? Were those who tried to fee their loved ones from the thrall of David Koresh wasting their time? Is there a more noble endeavor man can partake in than the attempt to reveal the truth to those that only know the lie?
And to clarify (again), all the posts on this site existed LONG before the site ever did. I have been studying the bible and religion for a very long time. Over the years I made massive catalogs of notes. Eventually I transferred them to my computer, and at the urging of a friend, I created a site to categorize them all and give others a chance to read and respond to my conclusions and questions. Strange how only religionist think I should be doing something else with my spare time.
And, pbt777, please save the end times rhetoric. I heard the ‘any day now’ garbage when I was a kid, as did my father, my grandfather, my great grandfather and on an on since the first words of Jesus’ return were first written. And don’t forget, Jesus predicted that he would return to earth within a very short time, BEFORE his generation should pass away. The apostles actually believed they would be the first.
January 16, 2008 at 1:00 pm
And, amber, thanks for proving nothing other than that you can copy and paste your religious dogma on my site.
Biblical passages are not evidence of truth.
January 16, 2008 at 1:23 pm
The word of God, the bible is the truth. It is God’s love letter to mankind. God’s word is true. If I dictate a letter to my secretary to type out, is it me or my secretary who wrote the letter? It’s the same with God and how he gave His word to men. He has many attributes. He is a righteous judge as well as a loving Father.
January 16, 2008 at 1:24 pm
The word of God, the bible is the truth. It is God’s love letter to mankind. God’s word is true. If I dictate a letter to my secretary to type out, is it me or my secretary who wrote the letter? It’s the same with God and how he gave His word to men. He has many attributes. He is a righteous judge as well as a loving Father.
January 16, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Amber.. I need to tell you something as one xian talking to another. You will not win over any atheist by spitting scripture at them. It just makes you come across as arrogant and narrow minded. !)avid
January 16, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Hello, I am another person who bumped into your blog, and find it interesting as peculiarly Christian sort of Atheism ( perhaps the most normal sort found on the web, but reading your blog pointed it out to me).
Most Christianity and especially the fundamentalist sort seem to me to revolve around two basic principals.
1). that the bible is an encyclopedia, and the final word on what can be discovered from it
2) that there is an all powerful God who is an actual critter, made everything and micromanages to an absurd degree, but has such a weak ego that he will rearrange reality to suit the requests of a properly sincere sycophant.
Upon discovering that either of these dubious propositions, are unlikely or outright false, chucks out the baby, bathwater, bassinet, crib etc. to the point of dumping the concept of children altogether.
Santa Claus is indeed a good example. The actual reality of a crazy old man several hundred years ago who brightened the lives of local children in the coldest and bleakest part of the year with bright gifts is quite immaterial. Or perhaps he was real and a pedophile, that part is quite irrelevant. What is relevant is the Idea of kindness and consideration and the positive effect it has on everyone despite the apparent illogic of just giving stupid gifts away without normal cause.
Of course what was also done to that story is instructive as well, as people with ulterior motives warped it into an unrecognizable orgy of tossing money at corporations and the competing cacophony of religious, and semi religious groups shoring up their base.
And so it is with most religions, pretechnical people, often very brilliant, trying to make sense of life, sometimes in an honest search to understand, sometimes to achieve a political end that itself might have been honest or nefarious, and every generation after taking what they found and trying to reachieve all that in their own lights.
In doing so many good ideas, bad ideas, silly ideas, and irrelevant ideas have accreted to all the religions so that while none can be taken literally, all have valuable ideas hidden in the dross. Since the Churches they cam from were often unaware of these insights, even in their own religion, much less others, is is not surprising that a rejectionist of that religion might miss the actual treasures they inherited as well.
Because most of Christiandom has historically been so anti-intellectual, it’s own cupboards are barer than most, but there are many religions that have no “God” and many others that the gods are concepts and not critters (except to the dullest observer). All of these have much to teach, without trying to be an encyclopedia, or fantasy father figure.
I once thought of trying to put all this into another new religion, but a cult of intellectual foment, with a lively array of opinions, seems to go against its own nature.
January 16, 2008 at 4:37 pm
I have been reading all of the things that you don’t believe, and I was wondering what you do believe. (I don’t mean that sarcastically or rhetorically at all, I am very curious as to what you believe). For example, do you believe in evolution, if not where you think the world came from, or was it simply always here. What happens to us when we die? Do we just go into the ground, or do you believe similar to the Buddhist who thinks that we all become part of this life force that continues? Do you believe that there may be something that created us but he(or they I suppose) is unknowable or that the universe has always been there? Where did we get a sense of good and evil? How do you explain the complexities of our own bodies, minds and souls? Since there are a lot of questions there I suppose I am mostly interested in the big 3 – where did we come from, why are we here and where do we go when we die?
January 17, 2008 at 1:54 am
Thanks, David (whiteman0o0), for your comment to amber. I think it helps to hear it from another believer. It’s so very frustrating when a religionist, upon hearing/reading your opinion, simply responds in a knee-jerk fashion by spewing scripture. If an atheist doesn’t believe in the validity of your holy book, quoting passages from it isn’t going to make much of an impact.
January 17, 2008 at 2:39 am
Hi, Laurel, welcome back. I appreciate your interest in discovering where I’m coming from, but truthfully, I don’t think who I am is very relevant. You see, as odd as this may sound, this blog/site isn’t really about me. As I’ve stated before, I created this site simply as a place to categorize all the observations/questions I’ve accumulated over the years as I studied this religion (Christianity) I once so passionately believed in. I decided to create it in a blog format so that those who agreed or disagreed with my posts could feel free to respond.
However, since you asked so nicely; I believe in the EVOLUTION of evolution. As a theory I believe it is supported by proven fact more than any other theory. I believe that the more we discover about the history of our planet the more evolution makes sense. But it is far from perfect. Where do I think the world came from? Simply put, I have no idea. I’ve never been satisfied by the ol’ Big Bang Theory. However, I DON’T believe that the explanation given in the bible has ANY basis in reality. The Origin of Life is one of the greatest mysteries we will ever be faced with. This very subject is currently being discussed on another of my posts - http://doubtingthomas426.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/the-origin-of-life/ . What happens to us when we die? We return to the earth. That’s all. I don’t find this in any way depressing. It’s just life. I do not require an AFTERLIFE to be happy while alive. I do not believe in good and evil. I DO use the words good and evil to describe the behaviors of man but these are simply dramatic ways to declare approval and disapproval of another’s conduct. I do not believe morality is exclusive to the religious. I do not believe in astrology. I do not believe in the supernatural (ghosts, psychics, etc.). I believe in science. I believe in what has been proven. If I can’t see evidence of the reality of a thing, I can not believe in it. I do not believe in FAITH. I believe in proof. I believe in truth. I believe in reason. I believe in scrutiny. I believe we must never stop seeking knowledge. I believe that none of us should be satisfied by an answer given to us by another.
I’m sure this hasn’t answered your questions completely but it should give you a little peek behind the curtain.
Take Care.
January 17, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Sorry, I know that was off topic from your site but I really did appriciate that. I also beleive in science and what can be proven. I’m going to be busy for the next few weeks but then I’ll be posting some scientific evolution vs creation questions on my blog (and I’ll jump back into the conversation). Thanks again and I’ll be back in a few weeks
January 18, 2008 at 5:13 am
Hey Thomas - I’m enjoying the read here from another person of little (to no) faith. =).
you wrote:
“Once myth has been established as fact in a child’s mind, it is very difficult, even as an adult, for that person to shake that belief. ”
Ain’t that the truth!! Thank gawd, or the powers that be in our heads, that some of us CAN and DO shake some of these stifling beliefs…
Loking forward to readning more from you….
~smj
January 18, 2008 at 10:27 am
Hey “Thomas”, My name is Derek Jones I am the co founder of the Atheist/humanist website pathofreason.com. I would like to ask you a couple of questions about your writings and your blog. I really like your work but wish to discuss this via email if thats all right with you. Feel free to send me an Email at Pathofreason@yahoo.com. Thanks man
January 19, 2008 at 6:42 am
“or an Atheist who helps simply because they feel this is the right thing to do? ”
So where do atheists get this notion of right and wrong?
January 19, 2008 at 10:13 am
[[[In refference to my question of what is more moral, a Believer that assists someone in need with the expectation of a special reward in the afterlife, or an Atheist who helps simply because they feel this is the right thing to do, Papa asked: So where do atheists get this notion of right and wrong?]]]
Papa, your question truly saddens me. You reveal yourself to be one of those religionists who believe that the notion for understanding right and wrong comes ONLY with ‘faith’, and that atheists aren’t actually people who don’t believe in god but instead, are simply denying their belief. This is such a willful assertion. It simply has NO basis in reality whatsoever. And I feel I must ask you, if ‘faith’ is required to be moral and know right from wrong, exactly which god must I have ‘faith’ in? Only the Christian god, meaning only YOUR god? Are Scientologists incapable of knowing right from wrong? Buddhists? ANY of those who worshiped the thousands of gods that have been worshiped in the history of our civilization? In other words; To understand right from wrong, must I belong to YOUR religion, Papa?
Morality and ethics do not come from a god, it is the result of an evolved, higher functioning brain that is capable of understanding the consequences of an action. It is really that simple.
January 19, 2008 at 10:30 am
Derek, I checked out http://www.pathofreason.com and like what I’ve seen so far. I sent you an email, though you might want to check your junk mail folder in case it got filtered.
January 19, 2008 at 1:13 pm
“‘or an Atheist who helps simply because they feel this is the right thing to do? ‘
So where do atheists get this notion of right and wrong?”
Raising, reason, logic, emotion.
Do you honestly think that right snd wrong has to come from a supernatural bing? Think about it!
Ideas of right and wrong come from evolution, social need and emotion.I can easily think of 4 main explanations for morality. 1. Humans are social animal and social animal instinctual have rules. 2. Humans a social animels and for humans to survive as social animals we need rules. 3 No one wants people to bad things to them thus we all agree not to do bad things to each other. 4. People are born with a conscience, compassion and empathy.
Of course these don’t tell us what is right or wrong but it gives us a framework to categorise things as right, wrong and gray (nether or a combination of the 2). It is through logic,reason and emotion (though only logic and reason should be used but people are emotional creators) that we categorise things as right, wrong and gray.
January 19, 2008 at 2:16 pm
“No one wants people to bad things to them thus we all agree not to do bad things to each other.”
This is just one example of where materialistic explanations for morality always fail. They bring some concept of “good and bad” in the back door, and imply that survival is a “good.”
Of course we think surviving is good, but materialism can’t explain why. Under its theory, countless species died out before humans got here. Why was that “bad?” Why would it be bad for the universe if the whole planet died out?
If it is all about survival (an unproven “good” to begin with), then helping my neighbor could be good, or killing him and taking his stuff could be good.
Laws require a lawgiver.
January 19, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Hmm, I like your point about survival, Neil. How about that, WE AGREE ON SOMETHING! Reason to celebrate?
January 19, 2008 at 3:01 pm
I’m always looking for common ground, so I’ll take it!
Enjoy the weekend.
January 19, 2008 at 7:52 pm
Your thinking is just a product of random, purposeless processes. So where did this idea of morality come from? If from understanding the consequences as you suggest, then if the consequences of killing favor the killer, that is moral in your definition.
Or would you agree that killing an innocent person is morally wrong? How about stealing if I can always get away with it? Then the consequences are I get material goods or money for free. That sounds like a fair deal to me. Is it still wrong to steal even if I don’t get caught or is stealing wrong on the face of it?
January 19, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Neil: You completely ignore the point and then take 1 small thing I said and try to say its wrong by a completely that dose not actually disprove it then make a completely false statement that I already beaten beyond reasonable doubt.
You do not need a god to explain morality,
Papa: Our thinking is not part of random processes.
January 20, 2008 at 12:28 am
I am lurking on here - I need to think a bit, and post in a few days….
January 20, 2008 at 4:59 am
Lone Wolf ….it’s thinking on morality. And atheism cannot account for it.
January 20, 2008 at 6:12 am
Papa, I gave 4 explanations for morality that beyond any reasonable doubt prove that there is no need for a supernatural bind to explain morality. In fact God dose not explain morality.If God say “Do this” or “Don’t do this”, That dose not make “this” moral or immoral. Thats nothing but authoritarianism.
January 20, 2008 at 6:33 am
Authoritarianism may not be the best or most accurate word but right now I can’t think of another.
January 20, 2008 at 7:33 am
Appeal to authority, thats a better.
In fact God dose not explain morality.If God say “Do this” or “Don’t do this”, That dose not make “this” moral or immoral. Thats nothing but the appeal to authority fallacy.
January 20, 2008 at 11:11 am
[[[Papa said the following: Your thinking is just a product of random, purposeless processes. So where did this idea of morality come from? If from understanding the consequences as you suggest, then if the consequences of killing favor the killer, that is moral in your definition.
Or would you agree that killing an innocent person is morally wrong? How about stealing if I can always get away with it? Then the consequences are I get material goods or money for free. That sounds like a fair deal to me. Is it still wrong to steal even if I don’t get caught or is stealing wrong on the face of it?]]]
—————-
Papa, since you seem unwilling to acknowledge the questions I asked you in my last post, I will repeat myself.
–Papa, your question truly saddens me. You reveal yourself to be one of those religionists who believe that the notion for understanding right and wrong comes ONLY with ‘faith’, and that atheists aren’t actually people who don’t believe in god but instead, are simply denying their belief. This is such a willful assertion. It simply has NO basis in reality whatsoever. And I feel I must ask you, if ‘faith’ is required to be moral and know right from wrong, exactly which god must I have ‘faith’ in? Only the Christian god, meaning only YOUR god? Are Scientologists incapable of knowing right from wrong? Buddhists? ANY of those who worshiped the thousands of gods that have been worshiped in the history of our civilization? In other words; To understand right from wrong, must I belong to YOUR religion, Papa?
Morality and ethics do not come from a god, it is the result of an evolved, higher functioning brain that is capable of understanding the consequences of an action. It is really that simple.–
And, Papa, your interpretation of my statement on morality in the non religious was bizarre and VERY revealing. The idea that I was suggesting that someone who gains benefit from killing or stealing is behaving morally is just absurd. These people KNOW what they are doing is wrong, not because your god told them that but because the law told them that. They chose to do the crime anyway, thus they chose to behave immorally. This example doesn’t even REQUIRE any consideration of a personal moral or ethical belief as these people are basing their decisions on an external set of moral standards. And as Lone Wolf stated, people are born with compassion, empathy and a conscience. Granted, some seem as if they aren’t but this is always a matter of someone’s will overcoming these qualities. Understanding the consequences of your actions and using logic and reason to judge whether it would be right or wrong has far more to do with individual morality than faith. No matter how adamantly you insist that this isn’t the case, understanding of right and wrong DO exists outside of your chosen religion, Papa. And it could be argued that the religious don’t do what is right (when they do) because of their morality but out of FEAR. And fear of burning in eternal hellfire because you worked on the Sabbath is not a basis for morality.
Finally, Papa, I insist you make a statement on where YOU think morality comes from. I think you’ve made it pretty clear but I want you to put it in words. In black and white. WHERE DOES MORALITY COME FROM?
January 20, 2008 at 11:14 am
Also, for a very good article on the topic of the existence of morality outside of religion please visit
http://humanists.net/avijit/article/does_religion_define_morality_aparthib.htm
January 20, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Papa: If God will forgive any sin (no matter how bad it is) if you believe and except Jesus as your savorer, whats the motivation not to sin? Cause not madder what you do, you’ll be forgiven, you could go out and rape and murder 6 year old girls every night, God will forgive.
Theres no real motivation not to sin.
January 20, 2008 at 2:18 pm
I didn’t read all of Papa’s comments so I’m not sure how he characterized it, but it is not Biblical to say that you have to be a Christian to understand morality. On the contrary, read Romans 1-3. God wrote the law on our heart, so everyone knows it is wrong to murder, steal, etc. This actually agrees with your statement that, “And as Lone Wolf stated, people are born with compassion, empathy and a conscience.”
My point is that human laws don’t determine what is moral (though they may make someone think an act is moral). Regardless of your position on abortion, it is either moral or it isn’t. The change in laws didn’t take it from being moral to immoral or vice verse.
So from a Christian worldview it is no surprise that most people have a basic set of morals. The problem is that we are sinners and violate our own codes of conduct all the time.
Lone Wolf, as I noted just this week ( http://4simpsons.wordpress.com/2008/01/14/grace/ ), that is a common misunderstanding of grace. The Bible addresses this here and in other places. If you have a true understanding and acceptance of grace you won’t sin on purpose. But God’s grace is indeed so vast that murderers and rapists can be forgiven.
Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Romans 6:15-18 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
January 20, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Neil, I felt obliged to comment on your statement that regardless of your position on abortion it is either moral or it isn’t. I would argue that the moral question here is whether it is moral to embrace your own ego and demand that YOU should be making the decision for the woman that is considering abortion as an option.
Also, can you please refrain from quoting scripture to defend your beliefs. I ask for personal explanations, reasons and motives, not dogma. If an atheist believes your holy book is a bunch of nonsense, then spewing quotes from it will do very little to impress us. Not scolding you here, just asking. And before you come back with the expected retort that I use scriptural references throughout my site, remember, I use them as an example of what is WRONG with the book and the Christian god, NOT because I believe in them. Your quoting the lovely passages of the bible doesn’t make the ugly ones go away.
January 20, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Re. abortion, as you noted I deliberately made my point regardless of which side of the aisle one was on. If the gov’t decides what is “moral” then it isn’t true morality - it is majority rules (democracy) or fiat (other forms of gov’t).
Your nothingness-to-molecules-to-man worldview strives to explain why true morality could arise, but it always has to bring something in the back door. Your link made the same errors that others always do when attempting this feat.
Your pro-abortion reasoning has the same flaw as virtually all their sound bites: It assumes that the unborn is not a human being. If the unborn isn’t human, no explanation for abortion is necessary. If the unborn is a human being, no excuse is adequate (except to save the life of the mother, which is consistent with the pro-life ethic). I teach pro-life reasoning (always distinguishing between Biblical arguments and secular - I don’t need the Bible to annihilate the pro-abortion position). Feel free to stop by my blog for that.
Your contention that it is my “ego” and that I “demand” that I make decisions for others is a tired old ad hominem. Since I didn’t even take a position with my example I found it odd that you would jump in with that attack. BTW, I addressed this myth here - http://4simpsons.wordpress.com/2006/12/18/pro-lifers-dont-care-about-kids-after-they-are-born/
I use scripture to explain the Christian worldview. Lone Wolf misunderstood an element of it, so I was answering his point. I wasn’t trying to make anything “go away.” I thought that would be a logical way to show how he misunderstood the Biblical concept of grace.
It isn’t dogma, it comprises the “personal explanations, reasons and motives” for my views.
Your aversion to proper interpretion of scripture reveals much.
I thought you wanted dialogue, but your rules that you can use scripture to attack Christianity but that I can’t use it to defend / clarify it are a bit one-sided for my tastes. I require my commenters to avoid straw man arguments and personal attacks, but I don’t insist that they not critique the Bible.
I seem to offend you regardless of how I put forth my views. Since I don’t want to polarize you further, I’m going to bow out. Enjoy the last words!
Peace,
Neil
January 20, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Neil, you stated that you won’t be back but I have a feeling you are reading this so I will respond to your last comment. And please don’t take my irritation with certain comments you made as me being offended. I assure I wasn’t.
First, on the abortion issue, you missed my point (on top of making some ugly accusations that, one, I am pro-abortion, and, two, that I don’t believe the fetus inside a woman is human). Whether the living thing inside the woman’s body is a tumor or a human fetus is not the issue. The issue is WHO decides what this woman can do with the living thing inside her body. And just so we’re clear I am an atheist, a registered independent, am pro-life, AGAINST abortion AND pro-choice. This issue is FAR from black and white. My position is this; the living thing inside the woman’s body, whether it’s a tumor or a human fetus, is not capable of making a decision. On this we can, no doubt, agree. So it comes down to WHO gets to decide. I say, first, NO MAN should ever get to make the decision for the woman, EVER. Not the father, not the priest, not the doctor, not the President. Man simply has no ability to understand. It seems to me, that if someone MUST make the decision on whether or not to destroy what resides inside the woman’s body (whether tumor or fetus), then the ONLY logical person would be the person whose body it resides in. Are you saying you don’t agree with this? If not, then please explain just WHO you think has more ‘moral’ authority over this woman’s body? And until God can come down and sign a legal waver, I really can’t accept him as the answer. And finally, my use of the words YOU and EGO were not directed specifically at you, Neil. My comment was a general one, where YOU was referring to those who believe they know better than the woman herself. Same with reference to EGO.
Neil, you wrote – “Your nothingness-to-molecules-to-man worldview strives to explain why true morality could arise”. Where, on ANY of my posts or comments have I stated that I have a ‘nothingness-to-molecules-to-man worldview’? If anything, I’ve stated that Evolution does NOT have all the answers and is indeed just a THEORY and that I have major issues with the ol’ Big Bang Theory as well.
As to the use of scripture, when someone tries to use scripture in an attempt to legitimize a position that is ONLY supported by scripture, I get very bent out of shape. It is such a waste of breath (or time typing) to do so with someone who doesn’t believe the book you are quoting HAS any legitimacy. It seemed to me that was what you were doing. I apologize if I was mistaken. I (obviously) have a quick fuse on this particular issue. And to clarify, the definition of dogma; An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. So I stand by my use of the word.
Neil, you said – “Your aversion to proper interpretion of scripture reveals much.” You’re right, Neil. I DO have an aversion to ‘proper’ INTERPRETATION of scripture. WHY? Because it is YOUR biased opinion that makes it ‘proper’. It is your biased opinion that DEFINES it as an interpretation. You and your fellow believer interpret the stories of the bible the way you were taught to or, worse, the way you choose to. The other 80+ sects of Christianity interpret it differently than you. So how should I interpret it, Neil? Like you do or like they do? I think the majority of the posts located throughout the various categories listed above will reveal that I interpret the bible pretty literally. The reason for this is that it makes no sense to me that an all powerful god would allow the book that represents him and his religion to be filled with misinformation, fairy tales and outright lies.
Finally, I will ask again, if either you or Papa or ANYONE will please explain this assertion that atheists can’t be moral or understand morality. What religion and which god must I worship to be moral, understand morality and know right from wrong? YOURS? Does this mean Christianity? Which version? On this issue, Neil, you once again resorted to using scripture to support your stance, saying – “read Romans 1-3. God wrote the law on our heart, so everyone knows it is wrong to murder, steal, etc.” I think I made it clear on why this (scripture) isn’t a valid explination. It explains why YOU BELIEVE but not why I should believe. If your sole explination is “For the bible tells me so” then few who don’t believe as you do are going to have much use for your opinion. And I don’t mean just atheists. Are Buddhists capable of morality? Scientologists? Mormons?
In other words, does Christianity own the patent on morality? If so, which sect?
Also, Neil, did you ever read my January 15th reply to your comment? It’s about halfway up the page.
January 20, 2008 at 9:42 pm
“In fact God dose not explain morality.If God say “Do this” or “Don’t do this”, That dose not make “this” moral or immoral. Thats nothing but the appeal to authority fallacy.”
Maybe I’m missing something here, but why would the Creator of the Universe not be a credentialed authority to decide what is moral and what isn’t?
January 20, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Uh, DoomRater, what are you talking about? The morality discussion is refering to whether or not NON Christians are capable of understanding right from wrong, or capable of being moral. You might want to scroll up and read some of the other comments. As you can see, we’re kind of all over the place on this particular post (my main page).
January 21, 2008 at 2:57 am
“Your nothingness-to-molecules-to-man worldview strives to explain why true morality could arise, but it always has to bring something in the back door.”
First of all, no one says existence came out of nothingness. secondly; I explained where morality comes from, an explanation that dose not involve a supernatural bing. third: what is “true morality”
“Maybe I’m missing something here, but why would the Creator of the Universe not be a credentialed authority to decide what is moral and what isn’t?”
No, just cause someone says something even if its God, that dose not make it true. If God told you to sacrifice your child to him to prove your faith, would that be morally right? No.
January 21, 2008 at 7:22 pm
I dunno, a God that can declare light into existence sounds like he could declare actions right and wrong. And exactly what authority would be greater than that?
I’m beginning to wonder if you understand logical appeals to authority.
January 21, 2008 at 7:55 pm
DoomRater, you get that I don’t believe your god exists, right? I mean THAT IS the whole point of this site. So to defend you position by stating that your god is an all powerful super being and THAT’S why he can do the things he does, does absolutely nothing to convince me. And I do understand logical appeals to authority, if you are referring to the law, the government, or the boss, etc., but NOT if you mean the god of YOUR chosen religion. Your god has no more authority over the decisions I make in my life than Zeus, or Ra, or Baal, or Lucifer, or any of the multitude of gods mankind has invented over countless generations.
January 22, 2008 at 6:05 am
Light is a thing, morality, wright and wrong are concepts. No one, not even God can say “this fits into this concept and that fits into that concept” with out some logical and reasonable argument to back it up.
And how do you know God created light? Cause the bible says it? That as well is an appeal to authority. God could have lied, the writers of the bible could have made it up or it could just be mythology.
January 23, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Wow…. This is actually making me hurt on the inside lol.
I would like to say one thing. If you are an xian and you are simply going to come on to this site and spit scripture and get ticked off if something doesnt go your wany and then never post again because you cant think of an answer or find it on some xian argument site, then please please PLEASE do NOT! post on this blog ever again, this is not a good way to inspire thought in an atheist it will simply make them think that you have nothing to say other than what you have heard all your life from preachers, and the occasional seminar. So i reiterate DO NOT POST IF YOU ARE AN IDIOT! sry for the harsh words guys but im getting really tired of it. And just for the record and in case you havent read my other posts I am a xian, however I am also open minded to the arguments that I hear on this site, and I also do my own research on the topic and question my own faith as well as atheism to see if my faith can stand up in the fires of reason.
Anywhoo, now that I have that out of my system I will post in regard to Lone Wolf’s posts as I very much enjoy hearing what he has to say.
Morality is indeed a concept, however for every concept there has to be an origionating factor, In my mind that origionating factor for morality came from a perfect moral source(God), in your mind that source of perfect morality came from ourselves. So I ask how do you know that morality from “reason” is correct? Because if you state that morality and right and wrong are concepts, the Hitler could well have been on the right road. He believed quite strongly that he had the correct view on morality, and how do we know that he wasn’t just the next stage of moral evolution?
I look forward to hearing back from you all on this I have found this site very intellectually stimulating. Thanks doubtingthomas, even though I may not agree with you I appreciate you putting up this site and keeping an open mind.
!)avid
January 24, 2008 at 5:39 am
um, amber
spitting scripture out and telling atheists some random guy died for their sins isn’t going to make reformed believers out of us - to me, at least, the bible is a conglomeration of highly outdated stories, told by highly out-dated and politically motivated men - i am not in the habit of listening to advice given several centuries ago by a bunch of “over-moralizing ignoramuses - i am a former Christain/Catholic - indoctrinated by my parents - yes, i have read the Bible - too many times - and have studied it as well - to my great horror - frankly, i never want to open the poisonous things again
i have this to say to you - in spite of all the study, all the indoctrination, all the Sunday school, etc. - i have come to realize
“Nothing makes God real. You can talk and read your Bible and get your Sunday School lessons until you’re dead, and god won’t be any more real as a result.”
– thanks Spanish Inquisitor
in conclusion, it’s all drivel to me
—————-
Another Doubting Thomas - excellent blog, btw
January 24, 2008 at 6:12 am
Hey Thomas I am just letting you know I have dropped by. I see you have had the odd very ‘compassionate’ Christian comment, what a shame that they defile their own religion with their own words of hate.
As one of the people who left a reply said, “I am so sick of having to defend Christianity”. Honestly if more Christians actually lead the life of compassion, love, humility, acceptance and you know all of those good qualities that are supposed to represent Christianity and humanity, the religion wouldn’t need to be defended to the same degree because its reputation would stand as its defence.
I think it should be mandatory that all Christians should read the Bible from front to back and then back again.
Also when people quote scriptures to demean and pass judgement on other people (a very Christian thing to do), it might be useful if the scriptures were actually put in their actual historical context and the whole passage was quoted and not just the bit which passes judgement on a selected individual, because as you know DThomas I have discovered that they ‘conveniently’ leave out the rest of the passage which also points a finger at themselves!
Peace to all.
January 24, 2008 at 4:50 pm
evilwit, thanks for your words. Your story is an all too familiar one, to me and, I’m sure, to MANY others who stop by to peruse this blog. You quoted part of Spanish Inquisitor’s earlier comment. I don’t know if you’ve visited his blog but it is an excellent one. You can find it on my list of links at the top of the page or just click here: http://spaninquis.wordpress.com/
And in case you haven’t already, feel free to check out my other posts contained in the categories located at the top left side of the page.
Take Care.
January 24, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Hey chezzag, yes I have had a number of those believers stop by who only seem capable of informing me that I’m doomed to burn in eternal hellfire and I must repent to save my soul OR simple repeat the mantra “Because the bible tells me so” as their defense. BUT there are also those who attempt to defend their belief in a very intelligent, thought provoking manner (bitterhermit and whiteman0o0 ((someone I had earlier unfairly shoved into the other category and, it might be added, is the one whom you quote in your comment)) just to name a few). Granted I have yet to read a comment that has managed to sway me from my belief that my observations are valid ones, but I still enjoy the debate when the person on the other side isn’t trying to win with empty dogma and scripture.
I like your mandate that ALL Christians should be required/forced to REALLY read the bible, front to back. As I already stated, if more did so, there would certainly be fewer who would want to follow a religion based on this book.
My only issue with your comment is the part about context. I was actually surprised to see you use it, as ‘context’ is one of the most commonly repeated complaints from Christians when a non-believer uses passages from the bible to reveal the ugliness of the Christian religion. It’s clear that theists (god worshipers) are MASTERS at picking and choosing which passages from their holy books they want to follow/accept. But then I’m pretty adapt at ‘picking and choosing’ the ones I think are most revelatory of the contemptibility of their god and belief systems. Now I would argue that their selective preferences are the result of a careful, stubborn, WILLFUL naivety, while mine are the result of a determined desire to reveal the REST of what their holy books have to say. In other words, I wish to bring to light all the ugly stuff they purposefully ignore or even refuse to acknowledge/accept. So their out of context argument never holds any weight with me. I thought I’d address this issue before all the ‘haters’ jumped in with “HEY, HEY, HEY, DoubtingThomas has biblical passages taken out of context all over his site!” This simply isn’t the case. VERY FEW of my posts could be argued as being taken out of context as I VERY CAREFULLY chose passages that were blatant, obvious and as black and white as they could be. Nothing written before or after could possibly ‘redefine’ what they were saying. But Christians just HATE it when you confront them with the undeniable truth that their holy book clearly depicts a god that can only be described as a monster. Yes, there are many beautiful passages in the bible as well, but I REFUSE TO IGNORE the ugly parts. I just wish more Christians would take a more honest look at this particular book. Especially if they are going to dedicate their whole lives and every decision they make in their lives on its words.
Thanks for your comment and I hope you will keep perusing the rest of my site.
Take Care.
January 25, 2008 at 2:59 am
“Morality is indeed a concept, however for every concept there has to be an origionating factor, In my mind that origionating factor for morality came from a perfect moral source(God), in your mind that source of perfect morality came from ourselves. So I ask how do you know that morality from “reason” is correct? Because if you state that morality and right and wrong are concepts, the Hitler could well have been on the right road. He believed quite strongly that he had the correct view on morality, and how do we know that he wasn’t just the next stage of moral evolution?”
First: What is “perfect morality”?
Second: I didn’t say morality came from our selves, I said it came out of social necessity and enforced by evolution (those who fallowed the rules to a certain point had a grater chance of survival (and thus grater chance of reproduction) and made more friends and allies who could take care of there offspring if something happened to him/her) and it is through us having big brains and abstract thought that rules developed in to morality.
Thread: Why do you goto one of the worst people in history? There are going to be bad people no matter what morality comes from. Somethings messed up in there brain, there daddy liked to tuch him/her in bad ways or some combinations of things. I don’t know why but there are going to be bad people. And when these people get power, they do bad things.
There has to be a willingness to brake the rules when necessarily. For insistence a terrorist plants a nuke in New York, now torture is wrong but if there was a nuke in New York, do what it take to find and disarm it even it it means some one has to be torture. There are allot of things that are wrong but in certain situations you must bend and even brake the rules. Now add into that a bad person, a mentally ill person, plus the dehumanisation of the people he/she dose not like.
January 25, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Wolf: I haven’t had much sleep for the past few days so please forgive me if my comment is not the most legible thing on this site. But i’ll try anyways
Perfect morality, is the standard by which we get our, views of right and wrong, It is the thing we look to