Hey, Woman, God Says To Zip It!

I Cor. 14:34, 35“Let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.” These are more of the woman hater Paul’s words. I guess women preachers, priests, nuns, etc. should not be permitted then.

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79 Responses to “Hey, Woman, God Says To Zip It!”

  1. I am rereading (for the third time (its not an easy book)) “Lost Christianities.” This is one of the chapters used as a demonstration of an apparent forgery which nevertheless made it into the canon. Given Paul’s history (especially with Hecla) it is doubtful he would have written this. It also comes up as a non-sequitor, and, in early (prior to 700AD) copies which survive, shows up in different places in different translations. Nevertheless, it has been used by the christianist fundamentalist right to keep women in their place (at home, while the men visit male prostitutes, I guess?)

  2. Looks like you missed a couple verses, such as “Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church” and “submit to each other.” Of course, those wouldn’t prove your out-of-context theme.

    Christianity did more to liberate and elevate women than any other religion. Hinduism and widow burning, anyone? Or killing the female babies? How about Islam?

    The writings of Paul must have been equally controversial in his time, but for the opposite reasons they are now. Women were property then, but Paul wrote, “Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

    Have people not obeyed the scriptures well? Yes. That’s why we are called sinners.

  3. Lone Wolf Says:

    “Looks like you missed a couple verses, such as “Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church” and “submit to each other.” Of course, those wouldn’t prove your out-of-context theme.”
    Thats dose nothing to change the context of I Cor. 14:34, 35. The bible telling husbands and wives to love each other dose not change the fact that it also that are to be quiet in church and submit to there husbands and that the husband is to the wife as Christ is to the Church.

  4. But they do impact the context of the “abuse of women” theme.

    Is it so odd that the Bible would teach that men and women have equal value but different roles?

  5. Lone Wolf Says:

    It doesn’t teach equal but different, the bible pretty much states that woman are property of men, slaves. Woman in the bible are not equal in any way shape or form. Just look at how sexist the bible is.

  6. doubtingthomas426 Says:

    [[[Looks like you missed a couple verses, such as “Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church” and “submit to each other.” Of course, those wouldn’t prove your out-of-context theme. ]]]
    ————————

    Oh brother, again the ‘out of context’ copout rears its ugly head. Neil, do you mean like EVERY SINGLE CHRISTIAN has done since they first put quill to parchment? I’m sorry, Neil, this is the holy word of God. The above text says what it says. It IS NOT taken out of context in any way, shape or form. Women are often used by God as punishment for those God does not favor. “Therefore I will give their wives unto others.” Jer 8:10. “And the city shall be taken and the women ravished.” Zech. 14:2. “It is better to dwell in the corner of the housetop than with a brawling woman.” Prov. 25:24. OK, that one’s just funny. Eph. 5:22, 24 – “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: …. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.” Love and submit are NOT the same thing, Neil. I Tim. 2:11, 12 – “Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection. But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.” These are more of the woman hater Paul’s words. Do women really expect any better treatment in heaven? Num. 31:15-18 Moses’ words – “…kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” OI’m sorry, Neil, those who find the bible loathsome need not take anything out of context to support their position. Only those who defend it need do.

    • Judy Bechteli Says:

      I so agree. Submission and equality are opposites. Submission is slavery, and anyone who disagrees is fooliing themself. The bible is evil

  7. Hi – I’m sorry you are so bitter over your upbringing. It appears that someone did you a great disservice. I hope you do some serious Bible study and get away from these out-of-context and ethnocentric interpretations as well as ignoring everything that doesn’t support your hypothesis. I know they make great sound bites for you but they lack substance and don’t convey that you are serious about a discussion.

    I encourage you to check out str.org, carm.org and apologetics.com for more.

    Keep searching!

    Peace,
    Neil

    • Neil, I notice the bible doesn’t tell you to be a slave to anyone, that you are unclean, that you must shut up (meaning, I would assume, that you have nothing worthwhile to say. Yeah, you get to be the “head” of woman, and they are to treat you like god. I feel so sorry for you.

  8. Lone Wolf Says:

    Neil: You the one who’s quoting out of context.
    Yes your quote says that husbands and wives should love each other but love and equality are two different things. The bible states clearly that woman are not equal to men and are pretty much property of men.
    Exodus 20:17 “You must not want to take your neighbor’s house. You must not want his wife or his male or female slaves, or his ox or his donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” Deuteronomy 22:28-29 “28 If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged to be married and forces her to have sexual relations with him and people find out about it,29 the man must pay the girl’s father about one and one-fourth pounds of silver. He must also marry the girl, because he has dishonored her, and he may never divorce her for as long as he lives.”

  9. Hi Lone Wolf – You might try explaining away Galatians 3:28 while you’re at it – “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” And all of Paul’s friends who were female. More woman hating, right?

    This site has a bit on Deut 22 if you are interested – http://www.tektonics.org/af/ancientmores.html#dt2228

    In fact, this site is handy for all the things you guys are bringing up: http://www.tektonics.org/index2.html

  10. doubtingthomas426 Says:

    Neil, please don’t patronize me. Not on my own blog. I assure you that my observations concerning the bible are in no way related to any ‘bitterness’ I may have toward my upbringing. You say it appears someone did me a great disservice, yes, you’re correct, and I believe you’re familiar with them as they did the same disservice to you; the church. And I guarantee you I have studied the bible, in its multiple versions, in more depth and more times than you or most believers. You tell me to ‘keep searching’ but, Neil, it was my ‘searching’ that led me to become an Atheist. It is YOU who refuse to search. It is you and your ilk who refuse to scrutinize your beliefs, blindly and happily swallowing anything your churches feed you. How can I respect anyone who refuses to turn the same skeptical eye they train on all the other religions, on their own? I’m sorry, but I find Willful Ignorance to be one of the most repellent characteristics a human being can have.

    I’m sorry, Neil, but if you have nothing to offer to dispute my observations about your religion except a bunch of willful assertions that every vile thing in the bible only appears that way when taken out of context, then I’m not sure what you’re doing here. I have HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of posts in the various categories listed at the top of the page (on the left). I really don’t know how you can possible make your ‘out of context’ assertion for them all. But please try if you feel up to it. It would please me just to know that you had read them all.

    Take Care.

  11. “It is you and your ilk who refuse to scrutinize your beliefs, blindly and happily swallowing anything your churches feed you. How can I respect anyone who refuses to turn the same skeptical eye they train on all the other religions, on their own? I’m sorry, but I find Willful Ignorance to be one of the most repellent characteristics a human being can have.”

    That is a stereotype. Like some stereotypes, it may be true for some people. But it isn’t true for me. I rejected the church and its teachings until my late 20’s. I wasn’t brainwashed with it because I didn’t listen to any of it growing up. I couldn’t have told you who the Apostle Paul was, for example. I have searched countless Bible difficulties, studied and taught on various religions, etc. That doesn’t make me right, but it makes your stereotyping of me wrong.

    I haven’t read every page on your site, but I have yet to read an example of something I haven’ t seen 10 times before.

    Good luck!

  12. . . . it was my searching that led me to become an Atheist!
    I added that final exclamation mark. I could not help but ‘lift’ those few words to use in my comment. I am tempted to laugh any time I hear the admonition from a fundamental Christian to us ‘free thinkers’: if you would read the Bible . . . it says so in the Word of god . . .the Bible says . . . and so on and so on. From the age of 27 until almost 38, I was a fundamental believer, that is until I sat down one day, Bible in hand, and read it, really read it. Before I sat down, I was a “believer”, I rose an atheist. For the first time, I realized I had been sold a collection of myths, legends, and the rantings of old, religiously-inspired, nomadic fanatics, as “truth”. As for Paul? He was simply a product of the times in which he lived, and having only Jewish scriptures from which to draw his own thoughts and conclusions? I’ll leave with that thought hanging in mid-air.

  13. I misspoke. Paul, though claiming to be Jewish, had more than the Jewish scriptures from which to draw when writing his various letters to the various churches. He had been reared in a part of the Middle East steeped in the worship of Mithra. Compare the doctrine, the creeds, the tenets and so on between the worship of Mithra and the belief in Jesus as Son of God, and you will have trouble telling the two apart.

  14. The Mithra link is itself a myth, just like the attempts to discredit Christianity based on other copycat religions.

    Criticize Christianity all you like, but using examples like Mithra just show how poorly researched and/or biased your position is.

  15. Oops, this link is better – copycat religions.

  16. Mary,

    Thanks for the comment. I’m always please to hear your voice on my site. As for Neil’s criticism of your point, I’ll address that next.

    Neil,

    Neil, Neil, Neil, Neil. Oh what a can of worms you have inadvertently opened up when you attempted to dispute wise Mary’s suggestion that the bible lifted its stories from other sources. She’s correct, of course, and only a fool can possibly deny it. But thanks for the link anyway. Perhaps you’d like me to provide you with a few hundred links that prove that the Jesus of the bible never existed and that Noah’s flood never happened? No? You don’t have any interest visiting a biased website that ‘disproves’ what you choose to believe? Imagine that.

    Far from “the word of God”, Neil, the bible is simply a collection of stolen pagan mythology. The story of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden were taken from the Babylonian account. The Hebrew word Eden comes from an old Babylonian name for Mesopotamia, Gan-Eden, the garden of the Middle East. Noah’s Flood is just one of around four hundred flood accounts and the equivalent of the Ark and Mt. Ararat can also be found in many of these Deluge myths and the names of Noah’s sons are blatant copies. As are Issac’s sacrifice, Solomon’s judgment, and Samson’s pillar toppling. The Moses of the bible is clearly fashioned after the Syrian Mises and the ‘laws’ found in Exodus are obviously fashioned after Hammurabi’s code. Egyptian scriptures supplied the biblical Messiah. Between Jesus and the Egyptian Horus there are hundreds of similarities, much like those between Christ and Krishna.

    And let’s consider the numerology that is so prevalent in the bible. The bible is Hebrew mythology and this is why so many events in Jewish history take seven days or take place on the seventh day or year and require forty days or years to occur. Seven is the word for week in Hebrew but the world/universe being created in seven days myth is by no means original, almost every ancient cosmology was based on it. The Greeks believed their gods created the world in a week of seven days, and in the Hindu Purânas, Brahma does the same. You can find the names of these seven days in Hindu manuscripts as early as 5,000 B.C. And it wasn’t the Hebrews who first made the seventh day a sacred day. Hesiod (eighth century) said, “The seventh is the sacred day.” Plato wrote: “The gods, pitying the laborious nature of men ordained for them as a rest from all their labors, the succession of religious festivals.” The first of these was every seventh day. And the seventh day of every month was dedicated to the sun god Apollo, thus Sunday. Even the word Sabbath didn’t originate with the Hebrews. It was derived from the Babylonian Sabattu, day of rest, and was observed by them long before the Hebrews.

    And consider the “tree of life”. Every ancient race has had its “tree of life.” Zeus gave the Hesperides a tree that bore golden apples (Gogard). To guard the tree, Zeus placed Ladon, a SERPENT, at its base.; with the Norse it was Yggdrasil, the ash, at the foot of which was Nidhogg, their serpent. The serpent appears in every ancient mythology if there was a snake native to their area. For the Tibetans, the “tree of life” was Zampun, and with the Persians, it was Homa. The Hindu god, Siva, sent a fig tree to woman and prompted her to tempt her husband with the fruit. She obeyed, telling the man it would grant him immortality. After the man ate, Siva cursed him. “The mundane tree of life” was symbolized by the oak tree with the Druids. Even the Chinese had their “tree of knowledge,” Sung-Ming-Shu.

    Even the name Adam is not Hebrew in origin. Adam Adami can be found in Chaldean scriptures that predate those of the Hebrews. Among some ancient Babylonian clay tablets an account of creation identical with that of the bible was found, and the name of the first man? Adamu. And in The Prophecies by Ramutsariar, a Hindu book predating the bible by two thousand years, the Hebrew story is given almost word for word. The name of the first man? Adama. Oh, and the name of the first woman? Heva. Strange how the authors of the bible thought simply removing a single letter was enough to lay claim to another’s work. This is the reason why one shouldn’t confuse the Ethiopia of the bible for the African Ethiopia. Return the A to the front of the word and you discover it comes from the Greek Aethiopia (mythic land of darkness and mystery).

    So the God of the bible put Adam to sleep and removed a rib (bone) to create woman? Nothing new there. According to the Tahitans, their god, Taaroa, “put men to sleep for long ages,” and he also took a bone (Ivi) from man, and it became a woman.

    Regarding Noah’s Ark, the word ark is Egyptian. It means a chest or box for preserving something sacred. Another idea that is by no means original; the Hindus had their Argha, the Greeks, their Cista, the Argonauts, their Argo. And don’t forget Pandora’s box. And the numbers in this story are obviously symbolic. Seven, seven, seven, seven, seven, seven. So many sevens.

    And let’s consider Noah sending forth a raven and later three doves while seeking signs of land’s return. The Babylonian Noah, Utnapishtim, sent a dove, then a swallow, and finally a raven. The Babylonian ark rested on Mount Nisir, the Hindu ark on Mount Himalaya, and the Greek ark on Mount Parnassus. And the word Ararat, or Arath, is the Aramaic source of the word earth.

    When Noah and his crew finally find dry land, they quickly build an altar and start making sacrifices to God. First, which animals were sacrificed? In other words, which animals were rendered extinct by this reckless and needless slaughter? The bible says God both saw and SMELLED these sacrifices and was pleased by their “sweet savor” and thus came the covenant with Noah to never again destroy the earth by a deluge. But to make sure he didn’t FORGET his promise, God made a rainbow in the sky as a reminder. So, are we supposed to believe that the basic law of refraction hadn’t operated before this? So no rainbows resulted from the interaction of the sun and the rain in Adam’s day, not to mention during all those endless “begats”?

    Zeus, Jupiter to the Romans, also becomes offended with his own creation. He also decides to drown them all, sparing only Deucalion, and Pyrrha, who had “found grace” in his eyes. He allowed them to escape in a boat which finally landed on Mt. Parnassus. The Babylonian account can be found on the tablets of Assurbanipal. Here Enlil, again, also offended by man’s wickedness, decides to destroy him with water, but Ea, the god of wisdom, learns of Enlil’s plan and tells a man, Utnapishtim, about it. Like Noah, Utnapishtim is tenth in line from the first man, and walks with Ea. Ea tells him to build a enormous boat, one that will hold he and his family and also, you guessed it, all the beasts and birds and creeping things. And as soon as it was finished it began to storm, a storm so great that even the lesser gods “trembled in fear.” It stormed for six days and nights and on the SEVENTH it stopped. The boat floated around until it finally came to rest on Mount Nisir. It should be noted that Mt. Nisir sits between Medea and Armenia, making it practically identical with Ararat. Utnapishtim also sent out a dove, swallow, and raven when seeking land. He also built an altar upon making land and offers incense upon it. And, yes, the gods smell the “sweet savor” and gather around; and, Ishtar, “the lady of the rainbow,” hung out her multicolored necklace.

    With the Persian and Hindu myths it is not physical birds and beasts that are brought into the ark but their seeds — “… (take) the seeds of sheep, oxen, men and women, dogs, and birds and every kind of tree and fruit, two of every kind, into the ark seal it up with a golden ring and make in it a door and window.” An avatar of Vishnu warns the Hindu Noah, Vaivasvata, about the flood and tells him to build a vessel for his family and bring on board plant seeds and a pair of animals. After the flood the boat comes to rest on Mount Himalaya. And the number of days the storm lasted coincides exactly with the number in the Hebrew account.

    The Tepanecans of Mexico also reported a great flood that lasted exactly FORTY DAYS AND NIGHTS. The Society Islanders say the god Tangaloa, again angered by the wickedness of man, created such a mighty flood to punish them that only the mountaintops remained. And according to Inca mythology, the god Viracocha promised by the rainbow to never drown mankind again. And Bochica, a god of the Chibehas of Bogota, perched on a rainbow and quelled the flood. And even the Jews had other Deluge myths. In one a wrathful God scalded the sinful antedilvians.
    Many bible believers try and suggest that the other races copied from the Hebrew account, the one and only “revealed” account, but the Hindu, Chaldean, Babylonian and Egyptian accounts predate the Hebrew versions by many centuries.
    Also consider the names of Noah’s sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Taken from Maurice’s history of Hindustan: “It is related in Padmapooraun that Satyavrata, whose miraculous preservation from a general deluge is told at large in the Matsya, had three sons, the eldest of whom was named Jyapeti, or Lord of the Earth; the others were Charma and Sharma, which last words are in the vulgar dialects usually pronounced Cham and Sham …” In The City of God, St. Augustine uses these same forms, also Chanaan for Canaan.

    Onto the Tower of Babel. Nimrod wanted to build the tower out of anger at God for drowning the race. He didn’t believe God would keep his promise (why would he) and thought there could be another mass murder. To quote Josephus verbatim: “He wanted to avenge himself on God for the destruction of his ancestors (but weren’t they spared in the ark?) thus: he would build a tower so high that the waters of another flood, with which the world might be afflicted, would not be able to submerge it.” The Babylonian parallel ends similarly: “But all this they did only from fear of another deluge.” Even the name Babel (gate of God) came from the Akkadian Summerian Babili, about 3900 B.C., and means Gateway of God, one with the Greek “Gateway of the gods.”

    Bible believers think the scriptural Pharaohs were three Egyptian kings. The fact that nowhere, save in the bible, is there any account of these specific kings, particularly the cruel Pharaoh, doesn’t seem to bother them. There is also no record of Joseph, Moses, or even the captivity. The bible depicts Moses as practically destroying Egypt, yet if this were literally true, there should be some record of these events but there are none.

    Speaking of Moses, this is another myth that is shared by many other mythologies. As depicted in the Orphic hymn to Bacchus, Mises was also found in a box floating upon the waters. Also, like Moses, Mises’ laws were written on … wait for it … two slabs of stone. Again like Moses he had a rod that he worked miracles with, AND what could the rod turn itself into? That’s right, a SERPENT. Mises uses his rod to divide the rivers Orontes and Hydastus and he even strikes a rock with it to provide water for his thirsty army. The Egyptian Osiris was also put in a coffer or coffin and set adrift on the river Nile. Moses was discovered and raised by Thermuthis. Thermuthis was the name of a serpent sacred to Isis. The Greek lawgiver, Dionysius, was said to have held up two tables of stone on which the law was engraved.

    Hammurabi of Babylon, a contemporary with Abraham, was given a code of laws by Shamash, the great sun god, which he delivered to his people. This code predates the Mosaic code by MORE THAN A THOUSAND YEARS. Regarding this similarity, I. Elliott Binns remarked: “The variety of cases provided for is much greater than in the Mosaic codes, but where they deal with the same matters there is an extraordinary similarity in their ordinances, especially in phraseology.” Was it the biblical God or this older code that was the source of the Mosaic code? The answer seems obvious.

    The Egyptians, whom the Jews believed to be morally inferior, in fact had a well-developed sense of morality. You can find evidence of this in the Egyptian “Oath of Clearance,” which in toto contains six of the ten commandments and existed thousands of years before the Jews were ever heard of.

    It reads in part as follows:

    I have not committed fraud and evil against men.
    I have not diverted justice in the judgment hall.
    I have not caused a man to do more than his day’s work.
    I have not caused a slave to be ill-treated.
    I have not taken milk from the mouths of children.
    I have not stolen cattle.
    I have not been weak.
    I have not been wretched.
    I have not been impious or impure…

    See G.G Atkins, Procession of the Gods, p. 59

    And why is it that no direct reference to the Exodus can be found among any Egyptian inscription?

    The story of Daniel, who the bible shows to be a contemporary with Nebuchadnezzar, was written in Aramaic, a language not adopted by the Jews until centuries later.

    The scriptures call Belshazzar a king, but the historical Belshazzar was only regent for Nabonidus, never king. Also he was not the son of Nebuchadnezzar AND it was Nabonidus, the last of the Neo-Babylonian dynasty, who became ill not Nebuchadnezzar.

    And what of King David’s son, Solomon (both men completely fictional characters). According to 2 Chronicles 9:23: “… all the kings of the earth sought his (Solomon’s) presence.” Odd then, that none of them mention him. He was supposed to have lived just prior to Homer and Hesiod, but these men never mention this richest and wisest one. Herodotus who traveled throughout the entire Middle East never mentions Solomon OR even THE JEWS!

    Solomon’s “holy temple” is exalted as one of the greatest of all buildings, yet if you judge it by its measurements it was fairly small, only about 40 by 125 feet, and the chancels built around it were comparatively insignificant. Nagkon-Wat in Cambodia is 769 by 588 by 250 feet, elaborately carved and columned. The stonework depicts approximately 100,000 figures, one picture spanning 240 feet. Three different times the bible states that Solomon built the walls of Jerusalem, yet the historical Jerusalem was a walled city in the fourteenth century B.C. Also historically false, the suggestion that Solomon began to build the temple four hundred years after the Exodus from Egypt. And when Ezim-geber, said to be the site of Solomon’s navy yard, was excavated an article stated: “Not a vestige was found of the cradles and ways where for centuries the ships of the Jewish navy were built and launched.” Truthfully it’s very unlikely that the Jews of that time ever had a ship larger than your basic fishing smack, and it is even more unlikely that they ever had a mighty kingdom, king or temple. Ancient Israel’s military power is constantly touted in the bible, but this was likely as mythical as its naval power. In fact, wherever the military accounts of other nations mention the Jews at all, it is to record a complete triumph over them. The literature of the Jains of India tells a very similar story as that of Solomon. And Proverbs 22:17-23:11 is a nearly verbatim translation of the Egyptian book, The Wisdom of Amenemope, written about 1,000 B.C.

    And what about the second Jewish captivity? There is just as little proof for it as there was for the first. Around the time the scriptural “return” was happening, the Greek historian Herodotus visited Babylon, yet he makes no mention of it or the captivity. And his history of ancient Egypt reveals no mention of the first captivity. In fact, Herodotus never mentioned the Jews at all; nor did Homer, nor did Plato; nor did Socrates.

    Elijah was taken up bodily into heaven in a fiery chariot? Romulus, the founder of Rome, was also taken up to heaven in a chariot of fire. Similarly Mithra of Persia. But it only REALLY happened with Elijah, right?

    The story of Jonah and the whale is clearly a fairy tale, but is it an original fairy tale? In the Heracleid it is said that Hercules was also swallowed by a whale, and how about this, it occurred at exactly the same place, Joppa. And how many days did he remain in the whale’s belly? You guessed it, THREE. The Persians say that Jamshyd, their hero, was eaten by a giant sea monster and was later vomited out safe and sound upon the shore. And in the Samadeva Bhatta, and even older mythology from India, we learn of Saktadeva who was swallowed by a giant fish and later stepped out unharmed.

    And then we come to the Messiah. A story that is clearly unique, right? But wasn’t Hercules also born of a virgin, Alcmene, and didn’t he also have a god for a father (Zeus)? And Sanchoniathon tells us that Saturn offered his ‘only begotten son” to his father Uranus.

    There were many historians that lived during and around the time of Jesus and some of them were the most illustrious of all time – Tacitus, Plutarch, Livy, the two Plinys, Philo and Josephus, etc. Not to mention many other men of note such as Seneca, Martial, Juvenal, Epictetus, Plotinus, Porphyry, Vergil, Horace, and Ovid, the latter living till Christ, if real, would have been twenty-two. All these men were deeply interested in the doctrines and morals of their day and were all men of great intellect. So one must ask why they didn’t record this wonder-working Savior of the race? Is it because they wrote about historical matters and not mythological ones?

    Livy died before Jesus began performing his miracles, however he still failed to even mention two of the most sensational and unnatural events in human history for which he was alive for: the Immaculate Conception and virgin birth. Plutarch was alive from about 46 to 120 A.D. but apparently never heard of Christ. Pliny the Elder was Christ’s contemporary, yet makes no mention of him. The younger Pliny, 62-110 A.D., mentions the Christians of Pontus and Bithnia but as for Jesus, he is only referred to as the object of their worship and never as a man. And Tacitus and Pliny had nothing but contempt for this new religion. Seneca, brother of Gallio, was proconsul of Achaia when Paul is said to have preached there. Seneca documented many lesser things but nothing of Paul or the wonder-working Christ. How could Jesus’ miracles, virgin birth, etc. not have been worth mentioning? Philo, a philosopher historian, lived both before and after the time of Christ, yet never mentions him.

    When Justin Martyr was attempting to convert the Jews to Christianity, he encountered a Jew named Trypho who had this to say: “Now Christ, if he has indeed been born and exists anywhere, is unknown and does not even know himself and has no power until Elias come and make him manifest to all. And you, having accepted a groundless report, invent a Christ for yourselves and for his sake are inconsiderately perishing.” Trypho also referred to Jesus as “that Jesus who you say was crucified…” A clear and very early Jewish denial of Christ’s existence.

    The Mother of Hercules was a virgin, and so was the mother of Sosiosh, the Persian. Attis was born of the virgin Nana. Romulus and Remus, the founders of Rome, were sons of the god Mars, so it was with Bacchus, Aesculapius, Zarathustra, and many others.

    Matthew 1: 22&23 — “Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”

    This passage was translated from the Greek text, and there the word used was parthenos, which does mean virgin, but the word used in the original Hebrew, from which the Greek was taken, is almah, which simply means a young woman. The error was corrected in the later Greek translation, the proper Greek equivalent neanis being substituted. But, of course, the Church chose to leave it in its “virgin” Greek, and so it remains. Pathetic.

    Matthew 2:11 – “And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.”

    First, why do none of the other gospels mention these gifts? And could they be a more obvious copy of earlier mythology? When Socrates was born, 469 B.C., “Magi came from the east to offer gifts at Socrates’ birth, also bringing gold, frankincense and myrrh” (The Anacalypsis). At the birth of Krishna, 1200 B.C., “angels, shepherds and the prophets attended, gold, frankincense and myrrh were brought to him.” And when Confucius was born in 598 B.C., “Five wise men from a distance came to the house, celestial music was heard in the skies and angels attended the scene” (The Five Volumes).

    In the nineteenth century an eminent scholar, Rabbi Wise, searched the records of Pilate’s court, still extant, for evidence of Jesus’ trial. He found nothing.

    So many uninformed Christians believe that only their Savior suffered death on a cross, when in reality at least sixteen of them died in just this way.

    Jesus – Nazareth
    Krishna – India
    Sakia – India
    Iva – Nepal
    Indra – Tibet
    Mithra – Persia
    Tammuz – Babylonia
    Criti – Chaldea
    Attis – Phrygia
    Baili – Orissa
    Thules – Egypt
    Orontes – Egypt
    Witoba of the – Telingonese
    Odin – Scandinavia
    Hesus – the Druids
    Quetzalcoatl – Mexico

    The Aztecs used the cross and they never heard of Christ until his followers came to rob and murder them. Like all Christian paraphernalia, the cross is but an appropriation of pagan mythology.

    Christians have woven their “holy scriptures” into man’s ignorant soul and mankind has paid the price – two thousand years of ignorance, bigotry, intolerance, inquisition, massacre and war. Because of the bible our people hate, our nations fight, and the idea/ideal of peace has never been farther away. Because of the “good book” our statesmen can’t decipher myth from history and so they take from others and give to you who deceive them. Religion is but a means to power over men and minds and money, and their fictitious gods are simply their accessories. These myths became man’s mental food because they had no other. When robbed and hungry, a rotten apple is better than nothing; it served a starved and ‘dark’ age religion helped create. But as that age fades away, the feeble crutch and rotten apple need to go with it. It is time for another Emancipation Proclamation.

    E.E. Goldsmith (from Ancient Pagan Symbols, p. 94)

    “The Hebrews merely used for their poetic imagery the characteristic beliefs of the people to whom they made direct reference.”

    Madame Blavatsky –

    “The religion of the Masters – the Babylonians and Assyrians – was transferred almost bodily into Christianity.”

    AND BREATHE…………

    Sorry for the novel. You just happened to touch on the topic of a new post I have been working on. It isn’t finished yet but I’m sure you get the idea of what it’s going to be about.

    Take Care,

    DoubtingThomas

  17. Sorry to disappoint, but I don’t read novel-length blog comments and I don’t read your blog. Therefore, I’ll miss out on your new piece. This old thread just popped up in my WordPress comment reader so I responded to Mary’s obvious errors.

    And even if they weren’t gross factual errors, she commits the logical fallacy that similarities mean the things in the Bible didn’t happen. Got that? For example, I could meet 10 people who falsely claim to be you, but that doesn’t mean you don’t exist. The fact that there are many flood accounts doesn’t mean the Bible borrowed it, it means the flood really happened and various accounts were passed down – some more accurate than others. Go quiz the New Orleans flood victims and see if every account is identical. This really isn’t a difficult concept for those who aren’t so grossly biased.

    My guess is that your whole comment above and your upcoming piece make the same mistake, so let me save you some time.

    Have a nice life!

  18. Lone Wolf Says:

    Neil: Galatians 3:28 does not undo any of the sexism in the bible. That link does not justify the verse. And it only weakens the argument that the bible is the word of God. Saying “at this time at this place people though like ‘this'” when talking about the bible shows that the bible is man made and it still wouldn’t justify forcing a rape victim to marry the rapist.

  19. Well, I’ve sure had my laugh for the day! Neil doesn’t read novel-length comments, and so forth, so, he latches on to my few words and without taking the trouble to tell me in exactly what way I’ve erred, proceeds to try to ridicule me. It’s evident that his brain—steeped in nothing other than what he has been taught from childhood about the Bible—has been successfully sealed off from anything and everything that might possibly cause him to think. As a good friend once said to me many years ago when I was trapped into fundamental Christianity, “Mary, you think you are thinking, but you are not cogitating.” Neil, you are definitely not cogitating!
    Doubting Thomas: If I had all you wrote on this one blog site, I do believe that when it comes time for me to weed out my library of precious books in preparation for moving into a retirement home, this blogsite would be almost sufficient.

    • Judy Bechteli Says:

      Mary, you are only a woman, and not worth Neil’s time. To him-you are an inferior being. Anyone who believes in the bible is a misogynist.

  20. Hi Mary, unlike your stereotype and fact-free accusation that I don’t think – which has nothing to do with the evidence of Mithra, by the way – I was a skeptical atheist before becoming a Christian at ~28.

    I addressed all your false points about Mithra here – http://4simpsons.wordpress.com/2008/01/30/copycats/ If you are interested in the truth, research it some more. Christianity did not copy from Mithraism. And as I noted above, it is a logical fallacy to say that similarities mean something isn’t true.

  21. Neil, poor, Neil. Mary didn’t say that the Mithra similarities proved that Christianity was false. All she said was that one would have trouble telling the two apart, which is VERY true. As for my extremely long response above, it simply contains additional examples of the undeniable mythological origins of Christianity. Neither of us are guilty of a logical fallacy. YOU, however, are. You say that “The fact that there are many flood accounts doesn’t mean the Bible borrowed it,” but when the VAST majority were written BEFORE the biblical account, by thousands of years in some cases, the legitimacy of the biblical account must be questioned. I don’t even mention Mithra in my entire comment. There’s no need. The copious examples of biblical fairy tales existing in pagan mythologies LONG before the existence of Christianity are undeniable. You say “If you are interested in the truth, research it some more.” I challenge anyone to do more thorough research than I have on the origins of religion and specifically Christianity. So I’ll go ahead and throw your words back in your face.

    If YOU, Neil, are interested in the truth, research it some more. Start by growing a spine and challenging yourself by reading my comment above. It is not biased opinion, Neil, but simple historical fact, available to anyone and everyone.

    Take Care,

    DoubtingThomas

  22. Oh Thomas, you are stooping to Mary’s level. “Grow a spine?” Eek. Sorry, even with your “spooky” avatar and black background I’m really not feeling very threatened. If you want to do the emo schtick that is your call, but I’m not sure why you embrace stereotypes so reflexively. C’mon, go against the grain and use something white and cheery and put a decent picture in.

    The Mithra silliness was disproved thoroughly in the 20th century and only was resurrected (pun intended) with the Internet and the ability for atheists to trot out tired old theories as if they were somehow new or factual. Meet the New Atheists, same as the old atheists, just with more volume, less thinking and more rudeness.

    P.S. I addressed all your objections in my post.

  23. Neil: The Mithra silliness was disproved thoroughly in the 2oth century and only resurrected with the Internet?
    I lived through the last eighty years of the twentieth century . . . long enough to know just how dead wrong you are. Actually, the parallel between Mithra and Jesus is of no real importance. This is what is important: how it came about that Jesus metamorphosed from a Jew who believed himself to be the promised Jewish Messiah and was sentenced to death for the crime of insurrection by the Romans, into the Christian God.

  24. I’m always looking for common ground, and this is some here:

    “This is what is important: how it came about that Jesus metamorphosed from a Jew who believed himself to be the promised Jewish Messiah and was sentenced to death for the crime of insurrection by the Romans, into the Christian God.”

    That is what is important. And here’s the answer that best fits all the facts for how that came about: He rose from the dead.

  25. Mary:

    I’m writing a blog on this as we speak. I recommend How on Earth Did Jesus Become a God? By Larry Hurtado, its a great historical study of you statement “how it came about that Jesus metamorphosed from a Jew who believed himself to be the promised Jewish Messiah and was sentenced to death for the crime of insurrection by the Romans, into the Christian God.”

  26. First: Neil. Jesus rose from the dead? How do you know that excecpt by faith? Faith is NOT PROOF. NEVER HAS BEEN AND NEVER WILL BE. There is not so much as an iota of proof to be found anywhere in any written document in the world to prove that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended bodily into heaven—something easily believed at the time by the “faithful” since it was believed by the general population that the world was flat. If faith is “proof”, who has more faith in their religious beliefs than a believing Muslim? Is his belief in the Koran any less than your’s in the inspired?, “without error and without contradiction”, Holy Bible?” I believe you need a good dose of historical reality.

  27. Brooksrobinson: There is not a word of your “novel-length” comment but what is historical fact, and I like facts. I’ve taken note of E. E Goldsmith’s Pagan Symbols and will see if it is available at the library. Sounds like a good one to add to my collection, but at 88, and thinking of moving into a retirement home, I’ve got to reduce my library somewhat. Have you read Man And His Gods by Homer W. Smith? I borrowed a copy from a young minister back in the early 60s. When I returned it, I asked him how he could remain a minister after reading the book. Said he hadn’t. Just out of the seminary and hadn’t had time. A year later or less, he was no longer a minister but a teacher!.

  28. Mary:

    No I haven’t read that book, I’m kinda of backed up on books right now haha(I have like 8 waiting to be read). I have the God Delusion, so I’m sure that some of the idea’s of Dr.Smith are found in that book.

  29. Brooks, the book has been out of print for a long time, but one well worth reading. On the other hand, I’d say from reading your well-written “novel-length” comment, you’ve pretty well proven yourself to be as knowlegeable in Middle Eastern religious history as anyone i’ve come across.

  30. Brooks, the book has been out of print for a long time, but one well worth reading. On the other hand, I’d say from reading your well-written “novel-length” comment, you’ve pretty well proven yourself to be as knowlegeable in Middle Eastern religious history as anyone i’ve come across.

  31. now how did that happen?

  32. Mary,

    Thanks for recognizing the utter absurdity of Neil’s “Because Jesus rose from the dead” FACTUAL answer to your question. Neil has proven time and time again with his comments on this site that he is completely incapable of arguing outside of dogma. You might want to revisit my main page ( https://doubtingthomas426.wordpress.com/ ) and read our back and forth to see how pointless it is to argue with him. And I think you may have mistaken MY “novel length” comment above as something brooksrobinson wrote. Brooksrobinson is the guy you’re going back and forth with on the great-guy-horrible-father post, he NEVER would have written anything suggesting that the bible was lifted from pagan mythology. Brooksrobinson loves Jesus too much to ever take the time to question the legitimacy of his “I am the son of God” claim.

    BTW, if you haven’t visited this site yet, I HIGHLY recommend it. I think you’ll get a kick out of its simple logic. Check it out:

    http://godisimaginary.com/index.htm

    Take Care,

    DoubtingThomas

  33. Sadly, you both have created straw men over and over. Christianity is historical and evidential, though you like to say it is just about blind faith. All lies.

    Check out the apologetics section to the right of my blog if you want to know more. If.

    The godisimaginary site is full of straw men as well. Nobody light a match! Now that is blind faith – deliberately ignoring the evidence and believing false arguments.

  34. What amuses me about the strident atheists is that they seem so darn proud of their views. But if their worldview is true, think about the logical conclusions:

    – The universe came to being from nothing and became spectularly fine-tuned without an external agent to cause it
    – Life came from non-life
    – Life followed the path of Darwinian evolution to where we are today
    All religious beliefs came about through Darwinian evolution. Don’t look down on us, we can’t help it.
    -Darwinian evolutionists have no reason to be proud of anything – they just evolved to their current set of beliefs, just as religious people did
    – There is no universal morality, so any claims by Darwinian evolutionists about things being right or wrong are illogical

    Oddly, I don’t see these atheists living consistently with their worldview at all. They make all sorts of moral claims and are “evangelical” in their desire to convert people to their views.

    P.S. I love the “dogma” line, DT. Any middle grounders are welcome to visit my blog and see if I argue from facts and logic or just dogma.

    I don’t expect the “New Atheists” to convert, but true seekers can see how ridiculous it is for atheists to equate the evidence for belief in God to that of the evidence for milk jugs (as the godisimaginery site did), unicorns or the flying spaghetti monster.

    We have lots of evidence for the existence of God: Cosmological (”first cause”), teleological (design), morality, logic, the physical resurrection of Jesus, archeological support and fulfilled prophecies of the Bible, etc. If atheists don’t find that compelling, then so be it. I’m on the Great Commission, not the paid commission.

    But to insist that we have no evidence is uncharitable in the extreme and makes reasoned dialogue virtually impossible. When they trot out the unicorn or similar arguments I just treat that as the Atheist Concession Speech. I’m confident that true seekers will realize which side is more credible.

  35. Doubting Thomas:

    Theres no proof of coming from Pagan Mythology. That is a claim you’ll have to back up. Are their similarities to events in mythical stories and the Bible. No doubt, however it was long thought the city of Troy was a myth found only in the Iliad. Until a scholar using the Iliad, found the city of Troy in the later 1800’s. You’ll find that behind many “myths” theres a factual basis.

    “of how incredibly delusional brooksrobinson can be”

    I think the same thing about most of your posts…(they lack a proper exegesis and hermeneutics of the text).

  36. Doubting Thomas:

    “Theres no proof of coming from Pagan Mythology. That is a claim you’ll have to back up.”

    I used this too lightly, only because I’m sure you could find links, but theres no tangible proof Judaism or its texts are based off of pagan mythology. Where as theres tangible proof of Christianity coming from Judaism, and Islam coming from both Christianity and Judaism.

  37. Lone Wolf Says:

    I hadn’t planned on getting in the conversation until Neil forced my hand with his ignorants.
    Now I don’t want to fall into the trap of saying “You weren’t an atheist your lying” but it seems based on what you have said it seems that you where never an atheist. I’m not saying your weren’t (I think it but I’ve thought many things that turned out to be wrong) but it seems that way based on your comments.

    The universe came to being from nothing and became spectularly fine-tuned without an external agent to cause it

    No one has ever said the universe came from nothing! We just don’t presume to know what or where it came from, we have absolutely no information about it.
    The universe is in no way shape or form fine tuned, sure if you alter the 4 fundamental forces (gravity, electromagnetism, strong force and week force) enough the universe could not be, make any of them too strong or too week the universe could not exist or life could not have formed but theres allot of leeway between too strong and too week in which a universe that can form and support life can form.

    – Life came from non-life

    No one says that! Look up abiogenesis.

    – Life followed the path of Darwinian evolution to where we are today
    – All religious beliefs came about through Darwinian evolution. Don’t look down on us, we can’t help it.
    -Darwinian evolutionists have no reason to be proud of anything – they just evolved to their current set of beliefs, just as religious people did

    Oddly, I don’t see these atheists living consistently with their worldview at all. They make all sorts of moral claims and are “evangelical” in their desire to convert people to their views.

    That statement is ridiculous. Evolution is a scientific theory that explains the diversity of life, it tells us nothing about the meaning of life, what is morel, what isn’t moral and other philosophical concepts, evolution is not sociology, it does not explain how our society developed and why we believe what we believe, it doesn’t explain how things came to be, it only explains the variety of life .

    All that “evidence” is fallacious and has been repeatedly debunked over and over and over and over again. There is no evidence for God which puts him at the same level and fairy’s, unicorns, the easter bunny and the Flying Spaghetti Monster

    The Mythrain similarity’s to Jesus are just one of the similarity’s to pagan mythologys. The whole Jesus story(s) fit many pagan mythology’s. Even the early Christens new this, the answer they came up for them was that Satan knew what would happen and invented the mythology’s to cast Jesus story.

  38. Hmmm . . . another response starting off with personal attacks.

    I won’t waste time hear correcting your scientific misconceptions re. the universe. You might like this book, though, by a real scientist – http://www.reformation21.org/shelf-life/review-there-is-a-god.php

    “There is no evidence for God which puts him at the same level and fairy’s, unicorns, the easter bunny and the Flying Spaghetti Monster”

    That is just hyperbole gone mad, so I accept your concession.

  39. Neil, I am willing to read anything and everything but you give me nothing specific in the way of documentation. Give me the specific name of a book that is documented with historical facts, and written by an author who believes, as you do, that Jesus, just like the Muslim prophet, Muhammed, rose to heaven. Can you prove to a Muslim believer that Muhammed did not rise to heaven just like Jesus did? Facts, not faith is what is needed to prove a point.
    When it comes to the belief that “evil” in this world is caused by the devil, otherwise, Satan, how do you explain Isaiah 45:7?

  40. Thanks DoubtingThomas for straightening me out. However, since I’ve reached the ripe old age of 88, I’m going to take advantage of it: I can blame any and every “confusion” to, yipes, old age.

  41. Hi Mary – you’re 88 and blogging? Good for you. Keep doing whatever got you this far!

    This book is very thorough in answering those questions about the resurrection and the start of the church. I think you’ll like N.T. Wright’s style (seriously) – http://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-Christian-Origins-Question-Vol/dp/0800626796/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211806658&sr=8-3

    DT is moderating my comments so I’m not sure if this will appear. If it does it will probably be my last one since I don’t like to type things that may not appear (I don’t object to his moderating, BTW, as I do the same thing myself with mischievous commenters – which apparently I am to DT!).

    I would recommend focusing solely on the resurrection question, since if Jesus wasn’t resurrected then none of the other questions matter (Islam, Satan, etc.).

    But here’s a quicky re. Muslims – I think we all know the challenges of proving a negative, but it is not hard to show where Islam errs relative to Christianity. Just start with the cross: sources inside and outside the Bible state that Jesus died on the cross, whereas Mohammad came along 500 years later and said it was Judas (or some body double). I point out to Muslims that both can’t be right, so where does the evidence lead?

  42. That’s odd, that comment went right through . . . maybe DT isn’t moderating. The other one is still awaiting approval.

    Oh well, happy Memorial day everyone!

  43. When using the Bible to prove anything in the Bible to be true, is not that one and the same with taking the words of a man on trial to be both his witness and the truth? As for outside sources? Indeed, we have outside sources claiming Jesus to have died on a cross. What is so all-fired mysterious about that?
    Yes, according to the Bible, Jesus met his death by crucifixation, and, yes, there are other sources that claim it to be so. Any Jew, thinking himself to be the chosen Jewish Messiah had to have known full well the penalty for gathering about him a following the size reported to have followed Jesus. He would have been fully aware of the fate awaiting him. Any and all those under Roman occupation who were found guilty of treason, of insurrecion, were sentenced to die by crucifixation. Others before hims had so caused their deaths. Jesus was not the first Jew to be so executed. Read “The Jews in the Roman World” by Michael Grant. Jesus, had he risen from the dead, would have been the first to call the Apostle Paul, a blasphemer
    I, though an atheist, have no problem whatsoever believing that a Jew whom Christians call Jesus, actually lived at a time they claim he lived. Like other devout Jews before him, and after, he believed himself to be the chosen Messiah. I believe that in order to understand Jesus, the believer must first know what the Messiah, or rather, the Moshiach’s role was to play in the lives of the Jews . . . and the world . . . after he arose from the dead . . . and you can’t find that out by reading the Bible, only. It sure is one hell of a long ways from what the Apostle Paul, with the help of his knowledge, and maybe a former belief in the Sun God Mythra . . . it’s quite possile . . . made of the crucified Jesus.

  44. “When using the Bible to prove anything in the Bible to be true, is not that one and the same with taking the words of a man on trial to be both his witness and the truth?”

    You would use other methods to determine whether his testimony is reliable, just as we have done for the Bible writers. Are there reasons his testimony is valid? Was he a witness to the events? Is he truthful?

    “As for outside sources? Indeed, we have outside sources claiming Jesus to have died on a cross. What is so all-fired mysterious about that?”

    OK, now you have dismissed considering evidence in the Bible and outside it. That’s convenient ;-).

    And I didn’t say it was mysterious. My point is that it wasn’t mysterious.

    “Yes, according to the Bible, Jesus met his death by crucifixation, and, yes, there are other sources that claim it to be so. Any Jew, thinking himself to be the chosen Jewish Messiah had to have known full well the penalty for gathering about him a following the size reported to have followed Jesus. He would have been fully aware of the fate awaiting him. Any and all those under Roman occupation who were found guilty of treason, of insurrecion, were sentenced to die by crucifixation. Others before hims had so caused their deaths. Jesus was not the first Jew to be so executed. Read “The Jews in the Roman World” by Michael Grant. Jesus, had he risen from the dead, would have been the first to call the Apostle Paul, a blasphemer
    I, though an atheist, have no problem whatsoever believing that a Jew whom Christians call Jesus, actually lived at a time they claim he lived. Like other devout Jews before him, and after, he believed himself to be the chosen Messiah. I believe that in order to understand Jesus, the believer must first know what the Messiah, or rather, the Moshiach’s role was to play in the lives of the Jews . . . and the world . . . after he arose from the dead . . . and you can’t find that out by reading the Bible, only. It sure is one hell of a long ways from what the Apostle Paul, with the help of his knowledge, and maybe a former belief in the Sun God Mythra . . . it’s quite possile . . . made of the crucified Jesus.”

    So we’re back to the question of whether Jesus really rose from the dead. I applaud you for considering the book I referenced (or any others you might find from orthodox scholars). You may not find them satisfying, but then again you might.

    Again, I submit that there is evidence for Jesus rising from the dead, and if you even concede that point for the sake of argument that a whole lot of things make sense: the behavior of the disciples, the actions and message of the Apostle Paul, the creation and spread of the church despite incredible persecution for hundreds of years, the changed lives, the ministries meeting people’s physical and spiritual needs, the fact that people still are transformed by him, and more.

    I don’t expect you to believe it because I said so. I just think it is worth researching futher.

  45. Neil, You are but quoting scripture in your attempt to prove the Bible to be trustworthy in telling the truth about events that are supposed to have taken place during the years Jesus lived and was crucified. There were skilled astrologists alive and writing at the time Jesus lived, and yet, to date, not one single, solitary scrap of any proven written report has been discovered concerning a darkness at noon and dead men rising from their graves and walking about while Jesus hung on a cross. Had those events actually occured, the Roman soldiers would have carried such a story to Rome. The tale would have been investigated and, if true, would have found its way into Roman archives. The Romans kept detailed accounts of their dealings with nations they had conquered and ruled. Strange, as prominent a figure as the chuch has made out Christ to be, the Romans were silent. Josephus, the well-known Jewish historian, seems not to have heard about Jesus except for one vague paragraph that is believed to be an interpolation by biblcal scholars.
    Everything written about the life of Jesus was written many, many years after he was dead. His followers evidently expected him to return in their lifetime. They would have had no need of scrolls for reading. True, a hundred years and moe later, words by the thousands began to appear and by whom? Why by such “learned” men as St. Agustine in the early stages of the Catholic church, of course.
    Give me just one provable source for so much as one statement written by a Roman scribe during the Romans occupation of Israel and I’ll have reason for doubting my lack of belief.

  46. Perhaps I should have started my former comment with: I concede nothing without being given a good logical reason for doing so. I don’t believe in ghosts, phantoms, evil spirits, nor, Calvin’s “monsters in the closet”. If it’s not logical, it’s imagination at work.

  47. there should be a way of correcting mistakes after submitting one’s comments. 1. Biblical scholars did not add the paragraph to Josephus’ work. . . because it “did not ring true”, they surmised it to be a forgery. 2, a hundred years and more….

  48. Mary:

    The Apostle Paul was a Pharisee prior to becoming a Christian, he studied under Gamaliel. Being a pious Pharisee, he would have rejected any Gentile religion, and to an extent, even Gentiles themselves. There is also a very strict 2nd Temple Jewish monotheistic influence on Christianity. Paul rejected pagan gods and even told believers not to participate in some of the celebration of pagan holidays in their cities. If Paul had a former cultist devotion to some pagan god, we would have seen this influence his writings. Instead we have a very strict 2nd Temple Jewish influence, that rejects all gods but YHWH. Where as there’s an influence of occultism behavior and ancient religious influence on Joseph Smith, and thus reflected in the beliefs of Mormonism.

    To All:
    The so called similar dying and rising god stories from Egypt and Greece are false. The earliest manuscripts in which these concepts are recorded are in the 200’sAD-300’s AD (notice after Jesus). Even in the earliest vases and reliefs from these cultures, there is no resurrecting gods. The majority of DT’s work in his amazingly long, novel length response is faulty or incomplete research (which is no stranger to his site). Krishna- was shot in the foot by a hunter, mistaking him for a deer.
    Tammuz- died every summer during the dry season as the plants died off, and during the growth season he would return ( he was a vegetation god, he symbolized the dying of plants and the growth of plants in that region).
    Indra- was never killed( as I have seen yet), but killed a Brahman who tried to kill him, and eventually became a lesser god of the weather.
    Odin- was pierced by his own spear and left hanging on the Tree of the World for 9days, but never died, instead learning many poems (he was killed by a wolf).
    Quetzalcoatl- in later mythology he was considered a symbol for death and resurrection, but his earlier myths he was the supreme creator god, he however would have no bearing on Jesus, unless you care to propose the America’s had contact with 1st century Judaism?
    Esus (not Hesus)- was never sacrificed, instead he killed humans by hanging them to trees and having them bleed to death.
    Criti- are you sure you have the right spelling, name, or right nation?
    Attis- The only thing similar to him and Jesus is his mother did not have sexual intercourse to conceive him. However, his mother ate an almond from a tree that came from a demonic figure named Agditis. Agditis had both male and female sex organs, this frightened the gods, so they cut off his male organ and an almond tree grew up from it. As far as his death, he cut off his own genitals and was turned into a pine tree.
    To summarize, there are no pagan myths influencing the story of Jesus, and propose 4 reasons as why we should accept them free from pagan influences.
    1. Strict Jewish 2nd Temple beliefs would have prohibited Jews who kept to the faith (like Paul and the Apostles) to associate heavily with Gentiles and their beliefs inside Judea, 2. Religions of the region, during the time of Jesus or before, did not contain a concept of a dying and resurrecting god. They actually came later, and therefore would mean the story of Jesus probably influenced their idea’s, 3. The early Christians rejected any Pagan belief what so ever, closely associating themselves with Jewish religion, 4. The devotion to Christ’s divinity and resurrection was so close to his death/resurrection time, that Pagan religious influences would not of had time to influence any sort of Christian idea or belief.

    There’s a flood story found on every continent on the globe, in which many of them have a story of judgment linked to them. Many of them have either a few survivors or a god recreated new creations. Many of them were developed in regions not known or traveled by those living in the Middle East, during the time of their development.

    The Jewish idea of a seven day week may not of been unique to them. However, the Sabbath day of rest certainly was. There’s no evidence the Babylonians rested on the Sabattu, in fact there’s evidence that runs to the contrary, supporting that they did work (tablets of trade transactions containing the “Sabattu” or 15th day as a date). The sabattu is the 15th day of the month, or the full moon of each month based of their ancient calendar. There’s no doubt that the phases of the moon had an influence on which Jewish holidays are celebrated, or that numbers play a large role in symbolism in the OT, but to say the day of rest was Babylonian and not a unique idea to the Hebrews is false.

    The cross is only a symbol because that is the execution device that killed Jesus. If Jesus was hung on a stake or an actual tree, those would be symbols.

  49. Mary:

    The Christian influences on Josephus’ writings are not denied. However the whole work is not dismissed by scholars. First there are two arguments, A. His work is not influenced, because the earliest manuscripts of his writings that were found in this region, all contain what is thought to be the Christian interpolation. No early copy have been found without this portion. B. His work was influenced, because the Christian interpolation is evident. However carefully reading his work and understanding his words, scholars have determined what is the interpolation and what is actually his words. They have an Arabic copy dating back to 1000AD without the interpolations. So using this, as well as the structure of words in the paragraph that are common to Josephus, scholars have essentially re wrote what he said to match what he probably actually said. This is what its believed to say,
    “About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats over many Jews and many of the Greeks. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. And a tribe of Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”

  50. “there should be a way of correcting mistakes after submitting one’s comments”

    Yes!! I always notice mine as soon as I hit the “Submit Comment” button.

    Here’s an interesting factoid from the footnotes of a book called Pontius Pilate, written by Paul Maier, regarding the darkness at the crucifixion.

    This phenomenon, evidently, was visible in Rome, Athens, and other Mediterranean cities. According to Tertullian, Apologeticus, xxi, 20, it was a “cosmic” or “world event.” Phlegon, a Greek author from Caria writing a chronology soon after 137 A.D., reported that in the fourth year of the 202nd Olmpiad (i.e., 33 A.D.) there was “the greatest eclipse of the sun,” and that “it became night in the sixth hour of the day [i.e., noon] so that stars even appeared in the heavens. There was a great earthquake in Bithynia, and many things were overturned in Nicaea.”

    That sounds a little like Matthew 27:45 – ”From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land.”

    “You are but quoting scripture in your attempt to prove the Bible to be trustworthy in telling the truth about events that are supposed to have taken place during the years Jesus lived and was crucified. ”

    I’m not sure where you drew that conclusion, but please permit me to clarify. Many authors wrote the books of the Bible. We examine what we know about them from outside the Bible and from what they wrote to assess whether they make credible witnesses.

    Just because someone has a “bias” of holding a set of beliefs doesn’t disqualify them from being a witness. Many atheists are clearly biased towards their views, but I don’t discount what they write because of that. I focus on their truth claims and whether they are supported by facts and logic. In the same way, we can analyze the authors of scripture.

    I can look at things like them pointing to women as the first witnesses of the resurrection and how the women believed before the men did. If you were trying to fabricate a Middle Eastern religion at that time that “lie” would have been a profoundly bad thing to do, as women couldn’t even testify in court.

    Re. the dating of the NT – please consider the points I made at http://4simpsons.wordpress.com/2006/06/29/when-was-the-new-testament-written/ . I know there is some debate about the age of some books, but even critical scholars agree that the real Apostle Paul wrote most of the letters attributed to him and that they were written before his death in ~A.D. 65. That covers all important Christian doctrines, including the belief that Jesus was physically resurrected, and they were written within 30 years of the crucifixion.

    Good question about the dead men rising, though just for the record the passage says they didn’t make appearances until after the resurrection. They “appeared to many people,” but not necessarily to the Roman soldiers. I haven’t studied that part to know if there are other references to it.

    I think that questions like “why isn’t more documentation of _____” available are fair, but keep in mind that the NT stands alone with respect to the number of copies available and the early datings relative to other works of antiquity.

  51. Neil, its getting late and this old woman is tired, but I notice you avoided what I requested. I asked you to tell me what role the Jewish Messiah was to play in the lives of the Jews, and the Gentiles, after he rose from the grave. Since you did not, or could not fill me in on the question. . . I shall take the trouble to enlighten you.
    Jesus was a Jew, and his followers, before his crucifixion, were Jews. Jesus would not have considered himself divine and “the son of God” more than any other Jew. The term did not mean to the Jews what it came to mean for Christians. The Jews following Jesus expected him, on his return to life, to rid them of their Roman occupiers and to restore their nation to its original glory. It may be putting it all to simply, but that was the role the Messiah was to play, according to all I’ve read. Jesus did not die willingly for my sins, your sins or anybody’s sins. . . not the way Christians came to interrupt his death.

  52. I should have added to “rid them of their Roman occupiers and to restore their nation to its original glory” these important words. . . with the help of almighty Yahweh.

  53. Neil,

    Just a quick FYI – I am NOT moderating your comments, or anybody else’s for that matter. WordPress automatically holds any comments with two or more links in them for approval as an anti spam measure. I have never prevented anyone from commenting on my site. Regardless if I think what they have to say is asinine or not I have always allowed everyone to say what they want. The reason I leave the automatic moderator on its default setting is to avoid those spammers who are always trying to inform me of places I can get cheap Cialis or Viagra, not to censor anyone. I’m sure someday in the not too distant future I will be grateful for all these spammer’s sincere concern for the firmness of my boners, but for now I choose to ignore them.

    And need I remind you of the Rule of Assumptions? You may rightly assume that an Atheist doesn’t believe in a god, yours or anybody else’s, but that is about ALL you can assume about them based on that single label (Atheist). I can assure you that all Atheists don’t share the same opinion on the origin of life, or evolutionary theory, or the big bang, or the genius of Darwin, or morality vs. ethics, etc. Personally, I can see that evolution is undeniable but as the answer for the origin of all life? I’m far from satisfied. The same with the Big Bang theory. It’s also obvious to me that no religion owns morality. In fact, it is obvious that Atheists are as capable of living a wholly moral life as self proclaimed Christians are capable of living a life COMPLETELY contradictory to their own moral teachings. Clearly believing in a god and that this god will punish you for your sins has little to do with why a person behaves the way they do.

    You also make the common mistake of thinking Atheists are trying to “convert” the Christian to our way of thinking. This is never the case. When an Atheist encountered a follower of David Koresh, they weren’t trying to “convert” them when they attempted to talk reason to them. Atheists may make statements about what we believe to be true to those who seem to only know the lie, but this is not an attempt to “convert” but to educate. These are SIGNIFICANTLY different words, Neil, and you should really know the difference.

    And I know you like to think of yourself as someone who argues using facts and logic rather than dogma but I gotta tell you, Neil, it is VERY difficult to take anyone seriously who repeatedly claims that there is ANY evidence supporting Jesus Christ as anything but a mortal man. You even suggest that “the creation and spread of the church despite incredible persecution for hundreds of years” is somehow proof of the reality of Jesus’ rising from the dead. Should I then assume that you give absolute credence to Joseph Smith’s claims and the legitimacy of the Mormon religion? Really, Neil, EVERY example you give could be used to argue the legitimacy of EVERY other god ever or currently being worshiped. And fulfilled prophecies, Neil, really? I suppose you believe in the predictive abilities of Nostradamus as well. I also find it odd that you criticize Muslims for giving credence to Mohammad’s claim that it was Judas who died on the cross instead of Jesus because it was written 500 years after the Christian version was written but you give credence to all the Christian texts that were clearly lifted from predated mythology.

    But seeing that you clearly believe that Jesus rose from the dead (just one of many in the bible. And BTW, what happened to all these other undead, anyway? Did their bodies heal from the corruption of decay? Did they go on to live ‘normal’ lives? Did they become famous ‘celebrities’? Were they now immortal or did they once again have a normal life span?) I was wondering if you could clear up a few things for me. Both Elijah and Jesus rose bodily up into heaven, Elijah in a chariot of fire (just like Romulus the founder of Rome, similarly Mithra of Persia) and Jesus like superman. So I was wondering, where exactly do you think heaven is, Neil? Clearly the writers of the bible believed that this place of gold-paved roads was literally floating above our flat earth on a VERY sturdy cloud (which makes one wonder how important the time of liftoff was considering if either man had waited 12 hours they would have been headed in a COMPLETELY different direction) so where do YOU think heaven is? In other words, where in the hell did Elijah and Jesus think they were going? How high did they get before they were no longer able to breathe and their bodies turned to ice? Also, when these two men with their human bodies arrived in heaven, a place populated by souls, angels and a God, what then? Did they have to eat? What did they eat? How did they get all their necessary vitamins and minerals? Did they wear clothes? The same clothes? Every day? Did their hair continue to grow? Did they have to sleep? Where did they urinate and defecate? Did they have gas? Did they have B.O.? Did they get involuntary erections as all men do? Did their noses produce snot? Could their bodies be injured? Could they suffer from aging? Were the angels and souls jealous of Elijah and Jesus’ human bodies or contemptuous of them? I occasionally get criticized for asking silly or frivolous questions but I truly am curious as to what Christians think about these things, so I appreciate you taking the time to voice your opinion.

    Neil, you said – “You would use other methods to determine whether his testimony is reliable, just as we have done for the Bible writers. Are there reasons his testimony is valid? Was he a witness to the events? Is he truthful?” – Good questions. The problem is you are allowing the writer himself to decide if he was an actual witness or truthful. Or worse, you are allowing the governing body of the religion using the text to decide, i.e. the Church. In what delusionary world would this technique be considered a test of reliability?

    Ugh, I’m getting close to novel length again so I’ll cut myself off now.

    DoubtingThomas

  54. Doubting Thomas. Hey, I’m 88. May I adopt you. . .
    Tom, if I may, for at least this one comment . . . I am sitting here laughing—but laughing with pure delight! About two years ago an evangelizing Christian friend challenged me to read read “Left Behind”, and remain a doubter. After forcing myself to read the book, I wrote my opinions and sent the work to my would-be converter. One of the things I asked is, when man is taken bodily up into heaven, does his feces become “Holy Shit”, or are they left behind in his underwear?

  55. Mary,

    You may call me Thomas Kaufman. So glad to know I wasn’t the first to wonder about that particular thorn. “Holy Shit!” Too funny. I actually created a new post about this dilemma in order to give some believers a chance to give their opinion. Sirius (hands down the most arrogant Christian I’ve ever encountered) has already put his two cents in (as expected). You might want to keep revisiting the post to see what answers will be given. I’m sure they will be fun reads. Here it is:

    https://doubtingthomas426.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/where-in-the-hell-did-jesus-and-elijah-think-they-were-going/

    DoubtingThomas

    PS – The people at PathofReason.com just added my article -Why Atheists Are Not Wasting Their Time- to their site. You might enjoy it. I will be adding the article to my site as a new post in a week or so. Here is the link:

    http://www.pathofreason.com/#/articles/4525423898

  56. Doubting Thomas, although I shall keep calling you that when commenting, you’re already secured in my heart as, Thomas D T Kaufman I shall now click on the pathofreason

  57. Lone Wolf Says:

    Neil: I did not attack you. I didn’t say you lied, I said based on your comments it looks like you did. And review your comments about the “atheist world view” (as if there is one) they are ignorant.

    No scientists says the universe came from nothing, no one does. And linking to an article that reviews an apologetics book doesn’t prove any one says the universe came from nothing.
    Its simple, no one knows what came before or what caused the big bang, we have no information about it and nothing to base an hypothesis, we can come up with ideas, but untill we get any information on it they will remain just that ideas

    No its not “hyperbole gone mad” to put something which there is no evidence of on par with anything else theres no evidence of. If theres no evidence for something, its on the same level as anything else that there is no evidence for no madder how much people believe that “it” exists and how long people believed that “it” exists.

  58. Brooksrobison: I’m a bit late responding to your comment of May 26, but in rereading your words, the following struck me as ludicrous.
    “If Paul had a former cultist devotion to some pagan god, we would have seen this influence his writings”
    Paul’s writings are “jam-packed” with references to the “pagan” god Mithra. Every doctrine Paul preached, baptism, washed in the blood, communion, feet washing and so on, were commaon practices of the worshippers of the sun god Mithra. Strange, though, In forty-eight scriptures taken from Paul’s writings in which he declared emphatically that he preached the entire gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, that he told the truth and that he did not lie, Paul failed to preach the doctrine of hell. Wonder why?

  59. Brooksrobison; I quote your words. “However the whole work is not dismissed by scholars.”

    In what way did I so much as hint that Joesephus’s writings are disclaimed by anybody. I refered
    to but one paragraph and one, only. What puzzles me is why, if Jesus was such a prominent figure in the Jerusalem area as Christians make him out to have been, why was Josephus seemingly so ignorant of him? Josephus was a Jew and an historian. One paragraph about Jesus and that, suspicious? Nothing more? Rome had excellent writers and yet, not one of them left any written record of him. Why not? Oh, yes, you have answers but those composed of surmises. Nothing concrete. If it says it in the Bible, then, in spite of the many, many translations the book has gone through over the cernturies, every word is the Inspired Word of God!

  60. Mary:

    Baptism was already a concept taught by John the Baptist, in the 20s-30sAD (Which Josephus talks about as well).
    Communion was taught by Jesus in the gospels as was feet washing.

    The earliest artifacts to Mithra worship are dated to 80AD, with a few dedication dates in the 70s AD. Paul would have been already martyred by then. Also the Church fathers in the 200sAD wrote that Mithraism was trying to imitate Christian worship. With the late dates of Mithraism and the early Christian concepts of these ceremonies (some predating Christianity itself), it is the other way around, the Mithra cult copied Christian styles of worship.

    Paul made a few mentions of “hell,” he stated things like “perishing” and “eternally condemned” I only know of one place that happens, and that is hell. One thing you have to understand about Paul’s letters is that he wasn’t preaching the gospel. His recipients had already received the gospel, he was sending them letters either praising them for actions, answering questions, scolding them for allowing sin to enter the church, encouraging them, etc.

    Josephus’ letters were primarily dealing with political issues going on in Judea and not religious. No Christians make Jesus to be a prominent figure, not even the Church fathers. I would venture to say, when he was crucified, he would have been forgotten by the people, just as the other “Messiahs” were. The Jews of that time had no concept of a dying and rising Messiah, therefore when a Messiah was slain, he was probably considered a fake and therefore forgotten. Also those who were crucified were considered cursed by God. Roman historians make note of a figure named Christ and his followers. However, one should not be surprised Jesus isn’t in many Roman works. He was not like the other Messianic figures. He did not lead a rebellion against Rome, nor did he cause any bloodshed but his own.

    Also, I’m curious to what other translations of the Bible you are talking about?

  61. brooksrobinson: I shall be back. late now and no time for the response your many mistakes require. I have a list of the many translations of the Bible. Among them, the Bible with a stange commandment. . . “Thou shalt commit adultery.” Of course that Bible didn’t survive for long and cost the printer his commission with the king.

  62. No, just a question or two: Although Paul went into great detail concerning every doctrine he wrote and sent to the chuches, why was he so vague when it came to describing the conditions lost souls were to face when entering hell? “Eternal condemnation” and “perishing” does not describe hell. It describes the “last days”, the end of the world. Why did he write in forty eight separate passages that he preached the entire gospel, that he spoke the truth and that he did not lie. If Jesus was using an actual hell when speaking of the “fires of Gehenna” then I want to read the scriptures where Paul uses such terms himself to describe hell. Don’t give me surmises. Give me definite scriptures I can go to satisfy my curiosity.

  63. The following list is by no means a complete list of the Bibles written fro 390 AD until the King James was printed in 1611 AD
    390 AD Jerome’s Latin Vulgate
    1384 Wycliffe: was completely reliant on fourth century Latin translation of St. Jeromes
    1516 Erasmus produces a Greek/Latin N. T.
    1522 Martin Luther’s German N. T.
    1526 William Tyndale’s N.T.
    1530 Tyndale’s translation of the Pentateuch
    1531 Tyndale’s translation of the Book of Jonah
    1534 Tyndale’s revised N. T.
    1535 Myles Coverdale’s Bible…first to be printed in the english language.
    1537 Matthew;s Bible
    1539 The Great Bible first in English to to be Authorized for public use. (80) books
    1560 The Geneva Bible
    1568 The Bishops Bible
    1609 The Douay Old Testament
    1611 The King James Version
    1782 Robert Aitken’s Bible
    1791 Isaac Collins and Isaiah Thomas
    1808 Jane Aitken’s Bible
    1841 English Hexapla N T
    1846 The Illluminated Bible
    1901 The American Standard Version
    1971 The New American Standard Version
    1973 The New International Version
    1982 The “New King James Version”

    Just one question: Out of all those Bibles written, how is it that God choose the version printed back in 1611 to be his “favorite”, the one he “inspired”, the one book to be without any contradictions?

    I own, first and foremost: The Kings James Version, then the Revised Standard Version, The New World translation, and George Lamsa’s Translation from the Aramaic of the Peshitta.

  64. Mary:

    Yet remarkably they all say the same thing, just in different words. The major translations of the modern era come from the latest manuscripts and grammar knowledge off the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic language. Just as the renowned Bible scholar,Bruce Metzger said, the Bible that we have today is 99.5% accurate to its original words. The KJV is only held to be “Gods Favorite” by a few Fundamentalists denominations and the Mormon Church. However, I do not prefer it, it has a few grammar errors. Which these were fixed with the NJKV in 1982.

  65. Mary:

    PS I own NIV, NKJV, KJV, RSV, ASV, Greek to English, plus numerous commentaries, and a software program with Greek/Hebrew with the Strong’s definitions (The Greek/Hebrew word and the English equivalents).

  66. “Yet, remarkably they all say the same thing?” Tell me, what is so remarkable bout that? Since the author of the first book written in 390 had only copies of what few writings were then in existence on which to depend, he used them. The next author had not only the first copies, but the first written, book. And so on and so on?

  67. I sent off my comment before finishing. Before asking the question I am about to ask, I admit I should have my study of how the King James Version of the Bible came to be written. I sent my one and only printed copy to a friend, and I do not have the time to print another out at the moment. I think I recall that it took 86 educated scholars and “church men”, divided into separate groups, some two years and more to compile the King James Bible. I am not dead certain on the number of men or the time required, but I’m not too far off. If God inspired the Good Book, why the number of men, and why did it take so long?

  68. Mary:

    “Tell me, what is so remarkable bout that?”
    My point is, people say that the many translations fade the message. Believing we really don’t know what it originally said. However it sounds like you must not believe that?

    “Since the author of the first book written in 390 had only copies of what few writings were then in existence on which to depend, he used them”-Defiantly not few, we have approx. 5600 Greek Manuscripts dating before 390AD. Plus the Church fathers prior to 390AD quoted the Bible so much, we could construct the New Testament from their citations alone.

    I think your misunderstanding inspired. There might be a few denominations out there who take inspired to mean, God literally possessed men to write it. However if you analyze the prophets of the Old Testament, their inspiration was essentially God saying “copy this down”, “or say this.” They were never possessed, evidence for this would be the fact that many of these men had no idea what they were seeing or writing and sometimes asked God, “Hey what does this mean?” So these men could have been inspired.

    Two years ain’t nothing in translating documents. Missionaries to Sierra Leone have just completed a Bible in some local languages, it took them over a decade, and I would venture to say two decades. However the natives through translators have received the gospel, or if they could read English/ another language they read that Bible. Despite that language barriers of man, God has always been able to reach past them.

  69. Brooksrobinson,

    So many religions. So many gods. SO many religious texts. But only those who wrote of YOUR god are inspired? Only those who wrote of YOUR god were writing the truth? Everyone else was writing what? Delusions? Lies? And there is no possibility that EVEN ONE of the writers of the books of the bible were as guilty of fraud or delusion as Joseph Smith or Jim Jones? Such unreasonable, willful, delusional, close-minded beliefs are supported only by faith not fact.

    I always find it amusing when Christians try and explain why it is that God only seems to speak Hebrew. Apparently he is either incapable or unwilling to speak to all of those billions of people scattered throughout the world who never heard of (or from) him until his missionaries showed up to politely inform them that they were worshiping the wrong god. God’s refusal to reveal himself to their ancestors as he did with the Jews doomed them all to burn in eternal hellfire (or at least prevented them from accessing Heaven). Why are all of mankind required to worship a god who ONLY revealed himself to the Jews and called ONLY the Jews his chosen people?

    And as for why you might want to reconsider thinking that the NKJV is the ‘best’ version of the bible, you might want to visit this site (FYI – it’s a Christian site):
    http://www.av1611.org/nkjv.html

    DoubtingThomas

  70. DT:

    “I always find it amusing when Christians try and explain why it is that God only seems to speak Hebrew.”

    I’m wondering what Christian thinks that? I’ve never heard any Christian claim that God only speaks Hebrew. I always find it amusing when Atheists assume something that isn’t true, and is actually so far from fact it would make a best seller in the fiction section. I’m curious D.T. what Christian school did you go to and what church did you go to? It often times comes across as if you never went to these schools, or you did not pay attention. The majority of your blog postings and comments are so elementary in Christian Biblical studies and theology, that if you truly studied the word, you would have such an answer (whether you liked it or not you would have an answer to these blogs). You should read Romans you’ll have your answer on what happens to the other people from around the world.

    “And as for why you might want to reconsider thinking that the NKJV is the ‘best’ version of the bible”

    I never said I believe the NKJV is the best translation.

  71. DT:

    That site was far from anything scholarly and is on the same level of those third rate websites claiming to know who the Beast of the end times is. In other words, its laughable. If thats who you go to for your Biblical study reviews I’m sorry…

  72. I never said God only speaks Hebrew. I said it SEEMS like he only speaks Hebrew so THAT IS WHY Christians feel obliged to go to all these different countries and ‘translate’ the bible into that language. Missionaries would be unnecessary with a god who communicated with ALL of his creation. You really should try reading a comment before replying.

  73. And regarding the website I directed you to, obviously I find them whacked out as well, but their complaints about the ‘corrections’ to the original KJV of the bible are valid.

  74. Dear Mr Thomas

    Firstly I am not a Christian and it goes without saying I am certainly not a Practicing Christian.

    What truly amazes me about people of your ilk is that in all that YOU have put into this you offer nothing in regard to Spirituality in any sense of the word. That leaves me to think of you as a ‘rationally minded person’ who has nothing with which to rationalise with outside that of ‘education.’

    I use a lot of word in a metaphoric sense because any of those few can, and are, used in a metaphoric way. ‘rational and ‘education’ are two such worlds that fall into the relams of metaphoric on given occassions when we have nothing else to use of a Spiritual nature. That’s basically because you (as much as I) actually ‘know’ nothing. Your ‘knowledge’ is based on how you come to accumate your end result and hence your beliefs … mine and anyone else’s.

    Your beliefs are valid … of course they are; but that doesn’t mean the validity of *your* truth is any more valid than any others; a point you miss and one you apparantly don’t bring into your many words here. It comes down to you know what *you* know and your version of ‘the truth’ is nothing else but that. This only puts you on level-par with anyone else’s version of ‘the truth.’

    And so in essence you can validify all you want of your version of the truth whilst poor Mary is calling out for ‘facts’ in a world where facts often fail to reveal the truth about many issues/events if life; why Mary should choose the Christian Faith to hold no facts and is therefor not credible I actually find in-credible. Facts are put to history daily … the same ‘facts’ are totally debunked (often centuries later) but, and obviously, not be everyone. Every day we are discovering ‘facts’ of era’s passed and we debunk them; does that ring bells with you with regard to what you mightg read?

    The fact you have been accepted as a credible source and submitted to a web-site actually does you no justice. That’s easy to get to because alongside those who believe as you do are those who believe as you do but not in the same way. So the dilemma here is that ‘organised aetheism’ (ie: in how you subsribe to a website where you wish your voice to be heard) itself is creating its own ‘religion’ in itself; amongst those will be others who won’t hold all that you say to be credible.

    And so, Mr Thomas, that leaves you and a lot of other people like you Spiritually dead; no beliefs, no reason why you are here and, in fact, no reason as to how you got here. For me … then that means you might spend more time pondering on what has no fact in order to search out the mystery rather than latch onto what you clearly don’t believe and use this as a way to ‘promote yourself’ (your inclusion to a website?) and yet apparently know only one thing with regard to Spirituality ….

    And that is absolutely nothing.

    I won’t be back so you might want to delete this before it hits your blog 🙂

  75. study philosephy. But have not understood God’s! Women, men, look to nature. Especially bugs, the female is different and the male bugs act different. Women are different which implies a different call or rather a sub – mission if you will. And it’s only one. Aren’t pets subject to their owneers. God expects women to be subject to him by being subject to the man. In turn the man subject to God. We are only a little higher than the bugs and animals look to what God has already created apart from the spirit. Insects all play different roles , the female and the male bug are the same or equal in creation. But their functions are different! As well as their role!

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